What do you know about arabs and muslims?

[ozymandias]

and don’t speak about religion/s unless you read and know about them.

Was that directed towards me?
I didn't really follow your "Moses-Jesus-Mohammad" reasoning either. What were you trying to say?


-----
Assaf
http://www.physicallyincorrect.com"

 

[math_04]

I'm pretty sure religion, when not balanced by a secular state (e.g. European states), eventually runs rampant and does all sorts of horrible things.

Being an atheist myself, I would have to play devil's advocate here and say that there were secular Arab rulers, namely Hafez Al Assad of Syria, Saddam Hussein of Iraq and Gamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt. Not the best examples of secular Arab rulers mainly because they were oppressive rulers who at times, were capably of utter brutality to their own people and had an aggressive foreign policy.

 

[ideasrule]

My view towards different cultural customs is this: I am open-minded towards customs that add freedom, but not towards those that take it away. For example, in North America it is not culturally acceptable for girls to be topless in public, but in many other countries it is. I don't consider those countries immoral; allowing girls to be topless adds freedom and doesn't deprieve other people of their rights, so it's perfectly acceptable. However, the honor killings and sexism inherent in many Islamic countries certainly isn't a cultural custom I'm willing to accept. No matter how it's justified, allowing a woman to be raped and then punishing the woman for the rape is morally abhorrent and a custom that--like slavery--should be eradicated.

 

[rootX]

Of course I feel angry about it and sad and a whole host of other emotions. But the world is not a utopian paradise, there are always people who will do things contrary to moral teachings. What I have said is that there are families out there who practice honor killings and that there is very little we can do to change their minds, it is a rigid belief for those individuals. But the world certainly is changing, the younger generation are exposed to different ideas and while attempting to keep their cultural identity intact, they are certainly adverse to the idea that honor killings is part of some family tradition. Of course, I cannot speak for every young Arab but then again, there are discrepancies everywhere.Again, honor killings is not a part of Arab culture anymore. There are a few who practice it but they are very much in the minority. You seem to think honor killings is accepted in at least half of Arab families worldwide which is absurd. The notion that many Arab families practice it is wholly inaccurate There are harsher sentences nowadays in many Arab countries such as Jordan and Kuwait mainly due to pressure by the women there. Sothere are things being done and no one wants to ignore them.

Would you say some thing for racism in US? Because it is only practiced by minority and we cannot do much to change their minds. And, things should be done only if majority use those practices.

 

[math_04]

Would you say some thing for racism in US? Because it is only practiced by minority and we cannot do much to change their minds. And, things should be done only if majority use those practices.

I have already stated my points before so I will not repeat myself. If you think you can change the opinion of every single person/family go ahead. I sincerely hope that you succeed.

 

[ozymandias]

Being an atheist myself, I would have to play devil's advocate here and say that there were secular Arab rulers, namely Hafez Al Assad of Syria, Saddam Hussein of Iraq and Gamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt. Not the best examples of secular Arab rulers mainly because they were oppressive rulers who at times, were capably of utter brutality to their own people and had an aggressive foreign policy.

You should've mentioned Stalin who was a pronounced atheist and mass murderer. But hey, I didn't say religion was the only thing that could go wrong with a country .


-----
Assaf
http://www.physicallyincorrect.com"

 

[ranger]

Heres a nice little piece of trivia. How many people here know what Jihad really means? How many of you googled/researched before you answered this?

 

[lisab]

Heres a nice little piece of trivia. How many people here know what Jihad really means? How many of you googled/researched before you answered this?

OK, without googling/researching, I think it means "struggle."

 

[OmCheeto]

Prior to 9/11, I pretty much ignored the middle east. I was interested in Islam, as I recall soliciting information regarding the 40 Hadith from a Muslim at the corner 7/11 several years prior.

But 9/11 really showed us where the heart of Islam laid. On the one hand, Palestinians were celebrating in the streets. On the other, 60,000 Iranians held a candlelight vigil.

So we scoured the media for answers: http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_islamvsislam.html"

So what are we to think of Arabs and Muslims? I post the question to Arabs and Muslims.

So far in this thread, IMHO, only one answer has come close:

They are people ..

For more details, refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosapiens

 

[lisab]

OK, without googling/researching, I think it means "struggle."

Spoiler

Wiki says I'm correct.

 

[ozymandias]

Heres a nice little piece of trivia. How many people here know what Jihad really means? How many of you googled/researched before you answered this?

That's too naive of you. Do you think Muslims who want to understand what Jihad means Google it? Every word and every punctuation mark in the Quran have centuries of interpretations added to them in thick, unintelligible layers, incomprehensible to any outsider or non-expert. Same thing with Judaism. Most things in the old testament aren't taken literally. You have "Gmara" and "Mishna" and all that bull. It's religious "lawyer-speak". You can twist anything in the Quran to mean almost anything. Same goes for the old testament. If you're trying to either vindicate or condemn Islam based on the Quran, you're fighting a meaningless battle. It's much better to judge religion based on history, which is concrete, rather than intentions and words, which are open to a wide range of interpretations.


-----
Assaf
http://www.physicallyincorrect.com"

 

[mgb_phys]

T It's much better to judge religion based on history, which is concrete,

But then it gets complicated, you have religious persecutions (bad) and religious hospitals (good).
That makes it very difficult to know which religions to put on the nice list and which to put on the naughty list.

 

[ranger]

That's too naive of you. Do you think Muslims who want to understand what Jihad means Google it? Every word and every punctuation mark in the Quran have centuries of interpretations added to them in thick, unintelligible layers, incomprehensible to any outsider or non-expert. Same thing with Judaism. Most things in the old testament aren't taken literally. You have "Gmara" and "Mishna" and all that bull. It's religious "lawyer-speak". You can twist anything in the Quran to mean almost anything. Same goes for the old testament. If you're trying to either vindicate or condemn Islam based on the Quran, you're fighting a meaningless battle. It's much better to judge religion based on history, which is concrete, rather than intentions and words, which are open to a wide range of interpretations.

Okay firstly, this thread is not about what Muslims think about Islam It was addressed to the OP with regards to what What do you know about arabs and muslims? Its for outsiders to answer based on what is happening these days and how much the real meaning of the word has changed due to the media and recent extremist activity.
So quit being so defensive and let's see what people think of the OP. If you want to digress from the OP, then start a new thread.

 

[ozymandias]

That makes it very difficult to know which religions to put on the nice list and which to put on the naughty list.

How about adopting a more complex view which does away with the naughty-nice lists? I'd rather think of it in a cost-vs-benefit way. Every religion incurs "costs" because you pay for it in individualism, in personal rights, tolerance and so forth, making society more susceptible to manipulation. You get back, however, meaning (for those who believe), a more tightly knit society, hospitals, a sense of belonging, etc. It's a question of balancing things. When properly balanced by a strong secular government, religion is acceptable, regardless of whether it's Islam, Christianity, Judaism or whatever. I personally think it's dumb, but it seems to work for lots of people and that's enough for me.

As for Islam, I believe this to be a classic "correlation is not causation" issue. The reason the 9/11 terrorists were Muslim is only indirectly related to Islam. In another world, in an alternative history line, they could've equally been Buddhists, Catholics, Jews and whatnot. We shouldn't be concerned about fundamentalist Muslims, but more about the causes that let fundamentalism get out of control in the first place: poverty, lack of education and separatism practiced by most Arab states.

I've been to middle America and saw a few Evangelical churches. Now, I'm no expert, but most seem to me as nutty as Muslims. What keeps them in control is the rest of America, which is (relatively) sane.

The "equations" that govern all religions are similar, it's the initial conditions that vary from country to country. In the Middle East they're unfortunately not very favorable.


-----
Assaf
http://www.physicallyincorrect.com"

 

[rootX]

But then it gets complicated, you have religious persecutions (bad) and religious hospitals (good).
That makes it very difficult to know which religions to put on the nice list and which to put on the naughty list.

No religion go on the naught list if you use the other approach provided that religious scholars interpret their own religious books.

 

[berkeman]

I've been to middle America and saw a few Evangelical churches. Now, I'm no expert, but most seem to me as nutty as Muslims. What keeps them in control is the rest of America, which is (relatively) sane.

Interesting (and I have to agree about that nuttiness, BTW). I wonder if that is one of the fundamental take-aways from this thread. Not so much about America, but as was stated a couple of times in this thread, about the overall democratic governments that the religious groups lived and functioned under. Honestly, that's interesting...

 

[JasonRox]

But then it gets complicated, you have religious persecutions (bad) and religious hospitals (good).
That makes it very difficult to know which religions to put on the nice list and which to put on the naughty list.

Either way. They are all bad.

They involve propagating made up things.

 

[berkeman]

Either way. They are all bad.

They involve propagating made up things.

Jason, I thought along the same lines for many years, but after I had kids (the ex-wife and the kids were all religious), I ended up helping out a lot at the kids' catholic school(s). The folks there were universally good and helpful, and softened my views. There are still some strident views that I see as not good, but the overall themes are positive and productive.

I've now ended up in a place where I don't view religions per se as violent and bad, but instead I try to look in more detail at how their systems work, in order to judge how to deal with them. That's one of the reasons that I'm finding this thread so useful...

EDIT -- BTW, I'm still an atheist, but that doesn't stop me from respecting and liking the folks that I meet at my kids' schools (and in this thread).

 

[math_04]

We shouldn't be concerned about fundamentalist Muslims, but more about the causes that let fundamentalism get out of control in the first place: poverty, lack of education and separatism practiced by most Arab states.

It is not really poverty and lack of education that contribute to a new generation of terrorists. Most of the terrorists in 9/11 and the leadership of Al Qaeda were well educated, grew up in working class families. Some Arabs resent Westerners because the negative effects of colonization are still in their minds and they believe that Westerners still want to control them. This mentality can lead to all kinds of expression but since Islam is an extremely important part of Arab life and decision making, some Arabs attempt to use religion to wage war on Western civilization. It is more to do with growing up hearing historical events in Arab history from the rise of Islam to colonization to independence etc and a belief that unless war is waged, Westerners will control and subjugate the Arabs again.

Some of them genuinely believe that the Greater Middle East should be cleared of Western influence and then the glory days of Arab civilization will be once again be rekindled. Again this view is not shared by the majority of Arabs who have stopped thinking in this tribalistic way but there are others who think in exactly the way mentioned above.

 

[ozymandias]

It is not really poverty and lack of education that contribute to a new generation of terrorists. Most of the terrorists in 9/11 and the leadership of Al Qaeda were well educated, grew up in working class families.

That's true, but I still believe that fighting poverty will get the job done. I'm no psychoanalyst, but my common sense tells me that when you're on top of the world, you don't want to go around shaking its foundations. If I grew up hearing stories of western oppression but saw nothing but prosperity around me, why would I go seeking revenge? Japan was beaten and nuked in WWII but you don't see it resenting anyone. Why? Because it's rich and advanced. That's the way I see it - do you think I'm missing something? The 9/11 terrorists may have come from middle-class families, but they believed they were acting out in the name of their nation, its people and its history. Fix the nation and its people, and you've significantly reduced every terrorist's motivation.

-----
Assaf
http://www.physicallyincorrect.com"

 

[drizzle]

...On the one hand, Palestinians were celebrating in the streets. On the other, 60,000 Iranians held a candlelight vigil.

maybe because the Iranians know what’s it like been threatened and under attack for no reason! [you know that they have been in the same situation but for almost 10 years when the US supports Iraq in that war, but they restore their freedom and save their country] while the Palestinians felt the opposite! cause they knew that the US support Israel blindfolded and never care about them, maybe it was like “do you feel the same way we do now!”. But most of all, I don’t think this is an Arab nor a Muslim kind of manner, it’s most likely any other nation that would be in their circumstances would do the same.

 

[OmCheeto]

maybe because the Iranians know what’s it like been threatened and under attack for no reason! [you know that they have been in the same situation but for almost 10 years when the US supports Iraq in that war, but they restore their freedom and save their country] while the Palestinians felt the opposite! cause they knew that the US support Israel blindfolded and never care about them, maybe it was like “do you feel the same way we do now!”. But most of all, I don’t think this is an Arab nor a Muslim kind of manner, it’s most likely any other nation that would be in their circumstances would do the same.

I often try to put myself in other nations historical and current situations. Sometimes I can understand why they do the things they do. Other times, I do not. The Gaza Strip is the most perplexing area I can think of, and seems to be a major hot spot. On the one hand, it appears that the Israeli's have boxed an entire society into a much too inferior land mass. On the other hand, the land in Egypt to Gaza's west seems to be virtually empty. Iran as I recall absorbed an incredibly huge number of displaced peoples. Why can't Egypt do the same? Are the rules of charity prescribed by the Quran optional? Or is it that the Arabs want Gaza to remain a hot spot in an effort to rid themselves of the European Israelis? Or is this simply the difference between the way sectarian and Islamic states are run?

Of course I do not know all of the details, as I live on the other side of the planet. This is why I enjoy hearing from people in the Middle East regarding these matters. An honest local perspective brings much to light.

 

[berkeman]

It’s not up to Egypt to open the boards and absorb the Palestinian people! I even doubt the Palestinians would do it and go there! it would almost be a step to let go the land to those who took it over by force, look at the Palestinian refugees now, they’re not allowed to go back to their homeland! those people are staying there, cause they believe they are Palestinians and should be representing the nation of Palestine, not to be a part of another Arab country!

I think we are all doing a pretty good job of keeping this thread open so far (and so long), and keeping the useful exchange of ideas going. I think there is a lot of value in this thread -- I know I've learned a lot out of it so far.

So I'd like to remind everybody to please keep exclamation marks out of your posts as much as you can. We're working toward keeping our emotions in check here as we use our minds to talk things through and learn from each other. Thanks.

 

[Evo]

This thread has gone way off topic. I've deleted the last few off topic posts.

If we can't stick to the topic, the thread will be locked.

 

[drizzle]

I think we are all doing a pretty good job of keeping this thread open so far (and so long), and keeping the useful exchange of ideas going. I think there is a lot of value in this thread -- I know I've learned a lot out of it so far.

So I'd like to remind everybody to please keep exclamation marks out of your posts as much as you can. We're working toward keeping our emotions in check here as we use our minds to talk things through and learn from each other. Thanks.

sure

 

[jostpuur]

Asking outsiders (especially westerns) for opinions/views on foreign cultures is not the best thing to do. A lot of them think what they do is right, and they judge ancient customs based on their "pop-culture." A perfect example of the current situation is about the French and the banning of the burqa.

Or then it could be that the burkha situation is an example of a case where westerns actually do understand problems of Islamic culture:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...-Muslim-woman-want-burkha-banned-streets.html Why I, as a British Muslim woman, want the burkha banned from our streets

The veil is simply a tool of oppression which is being used to alienate and control women under the guise of religious freedom.

Precisely because it is impossible to distinguish between the woman who is choosing to wear a burkha and the girl who has been forced to cover herself and live behind a veil, I believe it should be banned.

 

[JaredJames]

The burkha as an item of clothing in private, by all means. But my problem is when it is in public. You don't know who is under it. You don't know what they are carrying. Yes, there are some clothes you could apply the latter to (trench coats etc) but it is the full coverage that makes me dislike it. A person wearing a balaclava down the road in the middle of summer would be looked at as perculiar and everyone would comment on what they are up to.

On an episode of question time (UK tv show where people question the politicians) it was pointed out, if we go to their 'home' countries and tried to do something from our culture (wearing a bikini and such) you could face being arrested.

http://www.kippreport.com/2009/06/paris-hilton-defies-dubai-bikini-ban/

So why should we have to bend to their cultures when they come here? I have no problem with immigration and people coming to the UK (legally) but I don't see why I should have to change my habits just because it might offend someone.

Morris Dancers, a british heritage, but they were banned from blacking their faces with burnt cork as they have always done because it might offend. US changing OUR culture to suit others. Ridiculous.

A family on a council estate were told by the council to take down their christmas decorations, so that they don't offend their neighbours who were 90% immigrants. Ridiculous.

Also said on that episode of question time: "When in Rome..."
I couldn't agree with that more.

Religious or not, the Burkha is potentially dangerous. I was told recently about a suspected/convicted terrorist escaping the country wearing a Burkha (looking for link now).

edit: Here is the link: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,24007999-401,00.html

I apologise for the rant, but it is something I find extremely annoying.

 

[rootX]

On an episode of question time (UK tv show where people question the politicians) it was pointed out, if we go to their 'home' countries and tried to do something from our culture (wearing a bikini and such) you could face being arrested.

Besides that I noticed that generally criticizing the liberal western culture is accepted while at the same time criticizing the overly conservative culture is frowned upon by many people.

 

[wajed]

I have a deep distrust towards religion, and that includes Judaism as well as Islam. I think people who practice religion tend to base their decisions on irrational factors, which "makes them dangerous when put in positions of power. Therefore, while I don't dislike Muslims as a rule, I'm more than a bit distrustful a-priori toward them. This goes for orthodox Jews as well, mind you, as well as devout Christians.

What Irrational factors are like?
and please let`s not talk about things like "honor-killing" (which is not even a part of Islam), because such talk is useless; we need to talk about "Irrational... factors"

 

[wajed]

OK, without googling/researching, I think it means "struggle."

Is this an Arabic Langauge Topic? Na, so I think this is off-topic

If you are talking about Jihad in Islam, and you want to explain what "Jihad" is, you will need at least few lines, not a "word".

 

[ozymandias]

What Irrational factors are like?

Where to start? And with what religion? The mere belief in an entity you can't see or touch amazes me. Following the holy scriptures is a big irrational decision. Just open your respective book (bible, new testament, quran) and you'll see dozens of meaningless directives. I'm not an expert on Islam, but I can definitely do it with Judaism:
1. Not driving your car or using electricity on Saturday.
2. Not eating non-"Kosher" food (same way as Muslims don't eat pork).
3. Studying what scholars 600 years ago had to say on a multitude of topics and applying it to modern age (what? that's like me teaching aviation using Da Vinci's notebooks).

 

[tchitt]

I know you're all *** ***** terrist crazies. :p I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Anyone who buys into stuff like that is an ignorant *** hat and your best recourse is to understand that they're incapable of any sort of depth or real rational thought. That isn't how most people think... it's just that the people who think that tend to be the loudest ones.

I don't see the media attacking arabs and muslims so much as violent extremists. People who just HATE muslims just have a way of half-listening and drawing idiotic conclusions from thin air. You don't even have to be ideologically moderate to understand the truth... it just takes common sense.

Anyway, I know very little about arabs and muslims other than that in a lot of middle eastern countries religion is paramount. I think this causes problems because the west is becoming increasingly secular and now it's even harder for us to see eye-to-eye than it was when we were all catholics.

Most of the problem is misinformation and inflammatory bullspit being spread by governments through the media, in my opinion. We're all human beings and I'm sure we all think basically the same way regardless of ideology. There are certain universal values we all have, and the religions our people follow have similar teachings. We've got to stop letting the politics allow us to lose sight of reality.

Edit: I understand this is a science forum and most of the people who come here have some level of disdain or disrespect for religion. As an agnostic, this is something I don't understand. When people start spouting off that religion is some heavy-handed control mechanism or exploitation of "stupid people" I just want to scream (Yes, there are those that would use religion to coerce people into furthering their own goals but this can be said for any ideology... not just theological ones). At the end of the day none of us really knows any more than the next guy when it comes to our origins which is basically the essence of religion. When science definitively disproves the existence of a divine power by discovering how and why we all came to be... then you can gloat all you want.

It's all about tolerance and respect (a LOT of people find this through religion, we've all got different ways of dealing)... the ability to know that at the end of the day you know nothing. We should be focusing on not blowing each other up or insulting one another just because we've got different philosophies about how to get through this thing we call life.

Edit2: I might've gone too far into religion... if so I'm sorry, but I felt like it had to be said because there aren't a lot of opposing view points on the topic. I thought it was pertinent to the topic at hand because I feel like a lot of the misunderstandings have to do with religion.

 

[wajed]

Where to start? And with what religion? The mere belief in an entity you can't see or touch amazes me. Following the holy scriptures is a big irrational decision. Just open your respective book (..., quran) and you'll see dozens of meaningless directives. I'm not an expert on Islam, but ...:
1. ...
2. ... (same way as Muslims don't eat pork).
3. Studying what scholars 600 years ago had to say on a multitude of topics and applying it to modern age (what? that's like me teaching aviation using Da Vinci's notebooks).

For the sake of the topic, I choose Islam.

1)Do you have a heart? Do you have a brain? (I`m only asking for the sake of discussing, not trying to say anything rude at all)

2)Can we talk about how is that a big irrational decision? This depends on two things, one is enough to be taken of/on, and the second is just an extra:
A)If its from God, and he commands me to do like what he mentions in his holy books (and let`s narrow this to Quran) then I`ll certainly do it. God is the creator, and If I believe in him and his book, I`ll certainly do what he commands me to do
B)I don`t find any "specific" part of Quran to be nonsense, stupid, bad, or whatever. (and, please notice this is only an extra, If we are going to discuss, we`ll have to discuss the first basis first)

3) I do open my book, refer to the previous point, please. (point 2)

4) We don`t eat pork, nor do we drink wine; you can research about medical articles concerning these two. You`ll find the pork one of (or the) dirtiest meat, and you`ll find many reasons to not drink wine.

5)Our Quran works for every place and time. And in Islam, Quran is not the only way to life, but its the first basis, and its the most fundamental (it always has the priority, but it never prevents you from advancing).

 

[Santa1]

I don't see how pork is one of the "dirtiest meat", and that wine is not healthy?

I'd like you to post some sources on this.

 

[wajed]

"I don't see how pork is one of the "dirtiest meat", and that wine is not healthy?

I'd like you to post some sources on this."

concerning the meat, I don`t know what microscope you would need to see the germs, but I think you can ask a biologist (or maybe you are one); so just get pork meat and chicken meat or any *"Halal" meat and compare them. That is the reasonable way, or you may research it using Google (maybe).

*Halal meat: meat that Muslims can eat. (this is only a simple definition)

Concerning wine, it can cause social problems, since you do things (maybe extra bad things) while you are not conscious; concerning health issues:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article826499.ece

2)Can we talk about how is that a big irrational decision? This depends on two things, one is enough to be taken of/on, and the second is just an extra:
A)If its from God, and he commands me to do like what he mentions in his holy books (and let`s narrow this to Quran) then I`ll certainly do it. God is the creator, and If I believe in him and his book, I`ll certainly do what he commands me to do
B)I don`t find any "specific" part of Quran to be nonsense, stupid, bad, or whatever. (and, please notice this is only an extra, If we are going to discuss, we`ll have to discuss the first basis first)

First things first.
If anyone wants to know more about extra things, please research it. I`m not God to be expected to give reasons for any/every question, I only discuss God existence and whether Quran is from God or not. Reasons for why God command us to do so and so are only extras.