2012 mayan calender end of world astro line up opens stargate

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In summary, a team making a film about the Mayan calendar and the 2012 end date is looking for a reference to any special alignment that may occur during that time. The indigenous tribe involved in the film claims that this alignment will open a portal for two-way travel through a wormhole. The documentary maker is searching for a reputable scientist to provide evidence and ideas for the animation in the film. Some members of the conversation are skeptical about the significance of 2012, while others believe in the possibility of an alignment. The film also references the idea of opening one's mind and features a list of scientists, doctors, and spiritual teachers who have explored this concept. Ultimately, the documentary maker is seeking a scientific perspective on the significance
  • #1
rustandplastic
I am a sceptical TV documentary-maker currently involved with a team making a film about 2012, the end of the Mayan Calander and involved in this is a claim that a special alignment of the Earth relative to the centre of our galaxy opens a portal (like stargate) :rolleyes: that the indigenous tribe we are working with claims will open, allowing two-way travel through what sounds like a wormhole.

What I ask of this group is a reference to any special "alignment" that may happen around this time (december,2012) and whatever the result we need to create some animation that describes this so we need someone reputable to do some research along these lines for our film and some ideas for our animators.

All comments welcome.
 
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  • #2
man, can't people just make up their mind:zzz: ? oh we're going to die from bird flue, today its 6/6/06 the world is going to end, december 2012 the world will be sucked into a black hole. Wonder what we'll think of next:rofl:
 
  • #3
Not so much the end of the world they say but close, usual eartquakes etc but at least they have identified the supposed gates location which is under investigation, I post a pic soon.

come on anyone with the tech to help me!
 
  • #4
... a special alignment of the Earth relative to the centre of our galaxy ...

Two points, Earth and galactic center, determine a line --- they got that much right --- now, all we got to do is figure out what's so special about about that line compared to the infinite number of other lines that can be drawn between Earth and the galactic center.

"Alignment" is a word used by freaks, loons, mystics, bunco artists, frauds, kooks, and the front end mechanic down at Meineke. Rot is rot, and that's nice as far as documentaries go, because it leaves you free to make up the visual effects as you go along --- little "2001" plus maybe some old "Time Tunnel" footage? Don't forget to include something from the "Heaven's Gate" suicide scene.
 
  • #5
rustandplastic, if it isn't apparent already, overly-speculative ideas such as end-of-world theories don't have much truck around here. That's not going to get you answers you're looking for.
 
  • #6
I agree, as i said I am a sceptic, but I am after some real scientist to use some predictive model and show me how the Earth's position will be (and the galaxy) will look on that date for the animation. I also include the following quote and say that "It pays to investigate".
I make films for clients on whatever their subject is, for money and fun.
At least its interesting searching for the truth.
Indigenous peoples of the world seem to have some stories,myths and legends that they pass on orally in great secret, some of these secrets they are destined in their "prophesies" to reveal at this time. I'm not here to judge I want any legitimate evidence that might apply.
thanks for your post, know anyone that can provide such a predictive model?


“All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed,
second it is violently opposed,
and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer German philosopher, 1788-1860
 
  • #7
  • #8
rustandplastic said:
I agree, as i said I am a sceptic, but I am after some real scientist to use some predictive model and show me how the Earth's position will be (and the galaxy) will look on that date for the animation. I

Then just show a picture of how the Earth is positioned in the galaxy now, because the difference in its position relative to the Galaxy's center in 6 years compared to its position now wouldn't even be noticeable; something in the order of 1/25000 of a degree.
 
  • #9
cheers for that link, I am the most pragmatic, evidence based sort of person but when I see basically the same story in many cultures, just not with the date the mayans give us, it seems worth a look. Well the client convinced me so here I am, I am here to learn from my more learned (and specialised) peers.
Janus thank you!
 
  • #10
you might want to see a film called "what the bleep do we know" full of interesting stuff and presented by some powerful quantum phyicists.

I didnt make it but wished I had! Quite challenging.
 
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  • #11
My numbers come out to 10-5 degree; for the TV audience you can place a piece of printer paper on a table 3 1/2 miles from the camera and ask the audience to pick the upper or lower side of the paper's edge.

"What the bleep?" That the yoga loonies?
 
  • #12
Guess you really are a homework helper, thanks, nice.
yes one "loony tune" otherwise pretty straight as the list below attests
opening your mind is mentioned, often, by previously incredulous scientists, check it out then judge. I didnt really want to get of topic but
here's a list
THE SCIENTISTS
PHYSICISTS


William Tiller, Ph.D.
Amit Goswami
John Hagelin, Ph.D.
Fred Alan Wolf, Ph.D.
Dr. David Albert

NEUROLOGISTS, ANESTHESIOLOGISTS & PHYSICIANS


Dr. Masaru Emoto
Stuart Hameroff M.D.
Dr. Jeffrey Satinover
Andrew B. Newberg, M.D.
Dr. Daniel Monti
Dr. Joseph Dispenza

MOLECULAR BIOLOGY


Dr. Candace Pert

SPIRITUAL TEACHERS, MYSTICS AND SCHOLARS


Ramtha
Dr. Miceal Ledwith

a reminder of my initial request
"What I ask of this group is a reference to any special "alignment" that may happen around this time (december,2012) and whatever the result we need to create some animation that describes this so we need someone reputable to do some research along these lines for our film and some ideas for our animators."

so 2012 has no significance, at all, to any astro guys?
 
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  • #13
rustandplastic said:
(snip)
so 2012 has no significance, at all, to any astro guys?

Well, I turn 65 --- physical chemist rather than an "astro guy," but same time, it's a license to stick my nose just about wherever I want.

"Pretty straight" is a relative term when you're discussing the QM crowd --- some keep their feet on the ground and remember they haven't done the first ionization potential for helium yet, and others go wandering off into the "philosophical woods" musing on "many worlds" vs. Copenhagen --- the second bunch can be entertaining, but aren't to be taken too terribly seriously when you've got real work to do.l
 
  • #14
ahh conversation that's better
Perhaps "the bleep" might inspire another thread and your opinion noted with respect.
I'm a mere child of 47 or so but I will reserve my decision on all this till a
suitably qualified specialist or three can concur. Perhaps I should post some of my "loony" clients research and let you rip it apart, either way controversy works for film-making...look at the da Vinci code, the author always said it was fiction, but the church helped him sell millions.
Please remember I have no agenda here but the facts and to make an interesting and as accurate as possible film.
So if they let me I will leave this thread open for a while..bedtime its 4am in sydney...catch up with the post on the morrow.
cheers
bruce
oh Ok I can't sleep yet so, some more fun.
The mayans, my clients believe, are privvy to some knowledge perhaps it is similar to this train of thought - sorry i will post the source later...

...after decades of focusing their attentions skyward, the Meinels – now in their 80s – are grappling with a question that seems, at first light, to be far, far away from astronomy. Namely: Why did modern humans and other species emerge some 40,000 years ago?
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/science/20060607-9999-lz1c07meinel.html [Broken]

So if the calendar is about predicting, solar flares/cosmic bursts/asteroids whatever
it would seeem prudent to my mind to ask some experts.
So if there is no, I will try to choose my words better sir, yes sir, anything that may fit the scenario let me at it...maybe I should have mentioned there are several paid interviewee positions for this film.
OK now its goodnight from downunder (the bloods rushing to my head being upside down n' all..)
 
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  • #15
By all means, hang around. If I see the History Channel sink H.M.S. Barham one more time at Tsushima I'm going to puke --- documentary types should do as you're doing much more often than has been done in the past.

2012? You can play numerology games: count solar or lunar eclipses (with the ephemeris in the link) from the starting date of the calendar to 2012 and compare the numbers to numbers of steps on temples, or to "significant" numbers archaeologists have winkled from temple carvings and inscriptions. Look at long period comets due to appear in 2012 --- Shoemaker-Levy is a tough act to follow --- means I haven't really paid all that much attention to comets lately.

http://cometography.com/periodic_comets.html lists periodic beasts --- there're a handful scheduled for 2012, few more in 2011 --- check periods vs. the funny year and cycles in pre-Columbian calendars, and number of appearances vs. "magic" numbers. It's numerology, and nothing more than coincidence if something does match, but can be offered as a possible root for ending a calendar other than that the mason ran out of room.
 
  • #16
I guess it will be truly debunked in 2013 when we wake up on New Year's day and see that the world hasn't yet come to an end.

If the prediction is so vague that it doesn't specify what will align, then it's useless. The only way to test it would be if it did specify a specific alignment and then we could verify that that particular alignment would actually occur. I'm not an astronomer or physicist, but it seems to me that if you draw a line between two sufficiently distant points in the universe, something else lining up on that path as well is probably pretty likely. Whether or not you call it "special" depends on your point of view and how much you believe in hocus pocus. At least to us non-astronomers, "special" means it's something we can see with the naked eye or crude telescopes to enjoy seeing something we don't get to see every day, even if in the greater scheme of the whole universe, it is something that isn't all that uncommon or unusual. So, what do you define as "special?"
 
  • #17
Astromomy needs a spring clean.
 
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  • #18
thanks bystander that's the idea! thanks for the link.
couldnt agree with you more wolram, that goes for all science I think.
As more multi discipline studies like this engender more cooperation.
I am all for a complete debunking of all this if its done with pure science.

Ok so let's define this "alignment" as the sun/earth moving to a plane equal to the eclpictic plane of the milky way and specify an increase in the intensity of the cyclic sunspot activity as the result. I realize the centre of the galaxy is probably a black hole not a "sun" as described here but let that go and comment on these supplied images.
 

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  • #19
First image: 10-5 degrees/a for Earth's (solar system's) revolution about the galactic center means the path of the Earth from 1000 BCE to 5000 AD ain't going to show up as anything but a dot from any "normal" perspective of the picture shown; if I distort it by moving the observer's position to a fixed point at some distance, dr, greater than the solar system's average orbital radius beyond Earth's position at some point in 2012, I can elongate the system track to any length I wish in the galactic plane by decreasing dr (increasing parallax); I do NOT get the same elongation in the vertical plane. I'm going to have to guess that this is some peculiar astrological projection, and I've no idea what relation it might be thought to have with physical reality. If we look at Barnard's Star, 10 asec/a, for 6ka, and move it 8.5 degrees above and below the galactic plane from earth, at the distance implied in the perspective, the track might be the length of the circle used to mark 2012.

Second image: title is legible, but the labels on the diagram aren't --- got a silly astrological look to it. http://www.rssd.esa.int/Hipparcos/properm.html might be a better source for looking at "proper motion" of stars --- claims to animate the Pleiades.

Third: weather goes to hell and civilization follows --- or, Toba, or Tambora ("eighteen hundred and froze to death").

General note: nothing magical about the galactic plane --- it's a reference for measurement.
 
  • #20
rustandplastic said:
you might want to see a film called "what the bleep do we know" full of interesting stuff and presented by some powerful quantum phyicists. http://www.whatthebleep.com.au/scientists.asp [Broken]
I didnt make it but wished I had! Quite challenging.
This post contradicts your previous post. Discussions of that movie don't go far either, and your discriminating ear and your understanding of physics need some work if you can't see why.

For your question about the "alignment", most decent astronomy software (I use starry night) will allow you to position yourself virtually anywhere in the solar system to watch the planets move. For the galaxy, though, we aren't even sure what loks like and it won't move appreciably on human timescales either, so the only way to animate it is to find an artist's conception of it and do a flyby/zoom on that picture.

For that little graphic you have of this "alignment" - the Pleiades is not on the galactic plane and won't be in 2012 - or in 10,000 (the limit of Starry Night's ability to calculate). On that timescale, I can't even tell if it is moving towards or away the galactic plane. If you want, you can take stills from a program like Starry Night, frame-out the Pleiades and the galactic plane, animate them to watch the stars' proper motion, and watch it not move on anything under a geologic timeframe. It wouldn't make for a very interesting animation, though.
 
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  • #21
thank you all!
that's why i came because I'm not a physicist
cheers for the tip on "starry night"
as I said the graphics are as supplied to me your insight is much appreciated.
I would really like to see a confrontation in this film between the esoterics and scientists but also to see where anything might correllate in several avenues.
I will keep an eye on this for any additions but thanks I get the idea.
bruce
 
  • #22
Bystander said:
NASA/JPL, the "horse's mouth:" http://ephemeris.com/solar-system.html

Link works --- haven't gone through it in detail, but it looks like what you'd want for a TV audience.
The ephemeris site linked to the Max-Planck-Institut für extraterrestrische Physik site:

http://www.mpe.mpg.de/ir/GC/index.php [Broken]

and its fantastic. I've always wondered what the centre of this galaxy was doing.. its nice that someone else is checking it out!

As for 2012... we'll just have to wait and see... I guess.:uhh:

We've been noticing a rise in overall temperatures according to some sources... quite a few actually... and regardless of the reasons for this climactic rise in temp. we will definitely see some changes to the Earth's geography and people's lifestyles (EDIT: if sources are accurate).

When the glaciers of the polar caps begin to melt they tend to form damns of melt water that pressure against the remaining ice and create a "log jam" of sorts. When this water finally breaks free... it can create tsunamis larger than anything we've seen. Some of these waves can travel over 1000s of miles of land and hit areas completely unrelated to the ice fields they originate in.

Also there is isostatic release of pressure on the crust of the planet... with the weight of the glacial melt water being redistributed into the oceans. When this lift happens it generates enormass changes in the crust which allow magma to break through and causes earthquakes of hitherto unexperienced magnitude.

Its only 6 years till the "fateful" year of 2012 and I don't know if that's enough time to melt the polar caps or not. In Iceland they're experiencing a rapid meltdown... today we see some of the evaporated melt-water dumping on Washington DC.

As far as I can see the possiblity of the devastating effects of Glacial meltdown could be in full swing by 2012 because of the exponential nature of the rise in temperatures around the globe.

As for the TIME TUNNEL:rofl: ... thing and the alignment etc. With all due respect to the "tribes" that came up with the idea... perhaps they should get 100% royalties from the proceeds of the documentary for coming up with a cool theme for an episodal tv series.
 
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  • #23
Please try to keep the thread focused on issues of actual scientific interest. Our members do not come here to read about tripe like What the Bleep.

- Warren
 
  • #24
rustandplastic said:
I am a sceptical TV documentary-maker currently involved with a team making a film about 2012, the end of the Mayan Calander...

Never mind that, there's a far more urgent issue at hand. I've just looked at my wall calendar, and it's only got until Dec. 31, 2006! :eek:
 
  • #25
By the way, when you make a documentary, the assumption is you have some evidence to base it on. As of now, all you have is yet another end-of-world prediction based on numerology. That's not even a figment of a documentary. And if you throw in a few crackpot ideas like "time portals" and the alignment of stars - you still don't have a documentary. Even special-effects and fancy voiceovers won't help you.

By the way, do you know what you call the idea that "alignment" of planets or stars has significance? I'll give you a hint: it's not physics - there's nothing special about the orientation of distant stars, whose mutual graviational interactions are effectively negligible. It's called astrology, and it has a long and fascinating history (a great read!), from the ancient and medieval times when humans first attempted to make sense of the universe. Alignments of planets were thought to have mystical effects on nature. Thankfully our collective understanding of "nature" has much improved since then, you should try to keep up.
 
  • #26
Oh yeah, the ancient Maya were no different from the other ancients - in fact the very calendar you refer to was heavily rooted in astrology and superstition:

As the particular calendaric configurations were once again repeated, so too were the "supernatural" influences with which they were associated. Thus it was held that particular calendar configurations had a specific "character" to them, which would influence events on days exhibiting that configuration. Divinations could then be made from the auguries associated with a certain configuration, since events taking place on some future date would be subject to the same influences as its corresponding previous cycle dates. Events and ceremonies would be timed to coincide with auspicious dates, and avoid inauspicious ones (Coe 1992, Miller and Taube 1993).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar#Maya_concepts_of_time
 
  • #27
I know what's going happen...

The giant green sphere of my world will be seen through the hole and my family will return and then...

My giant native american friends will rise from the dead!


...
...
wouldn't that suck?
 
  • #28
Predictions like these are funny. Similar to the "curse" put on leaders of the American people. During the war of 1812, the British promised the shawnee native americans that they wouldn't allow the Americans to expand westward anymore if they had their assistance. Chief Tecumseh's brother was killed during the skirmish. Commited to seek revenge, the spiritual leader of the shawnee escaped to a cave to meditate on the matter. He was a self taught astrologer and his predictions were said to be amazing. He gazed up into the sky and saw two bright stars aligned(Saturn and Jupiter) He then "cursed" the white man saying that for the next 150 years, every time that these stars align that the leader of the Americans will die leading his people. Sure enough the curse played out to be true LOL. Lincoln and kennedy both were assasinated during this "alignment". Reagan had an assasination attempt made on him but survived! Of course the curse had then lapsed. 150 yrs had passed. TOTALLY coincedence if you ask me but still very interesting!
 
  • #29
matthew baird said:
Predictions like these are funny. Similar to the "curse" put on leaders of the American people. During the war of 1812, the British promised the shawnee native americans that they wouldn't allow the Americans to expand westward anymore if they had their assistance. Chief Tecumseh's brother was killed during the skirmish. Commited to seek revenge, the spiritual leader of the shawnee escaped to a cave to meditate on the matter. He was a self taught astrologer and his predictions were said to be amazing. He gazed up into the sky and saw two bright stars aligned(Saturn and Jupiter) He then "cursed" the white man saying that for the next 150 years, every time that these stars align that the leader of the Americans will die leading his people. Sure enough the curse played out to be true LOL. Lincoln and kennedy both were assasinated during this "alignment". Reagan had an assasination attempt made on him but survived! Of course the curse had then lapsed. 150 yrs had passed. TOTALLY coincedence if you ask me but still very interesting!

This is utter nonsense. Two planets are ALWAYS aligned - they define a line!
 
  • #30
haha I realize that two stars or planets are always aligned. But they come together every 20 yrs I guess...STILL he did predict what was goin to happen in the future...
 
  • #31
matthew baird said:
...STILL he did predict what was goin to happen in the future...

There's no evidence to support Chief Tecumseh ever saying that. The original legend (for which there was also no evidence) had nothing to do with the planets and centered on the regularity of the election years of presidents who died in office. Then some astrologer stepped in and tried to explain with planetary alignments and the BS just multiplied...

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/curse.asp" [Broken]
 
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  • #32
you are right but saddly human culture likes to say "aligned" only when two bodies are aligned with the sun. Jupiter could be 0* above the sun while Earth could be 90* around the sun, and the two are still alligned. Yet they are not "alligned" with the sun. As most people think, when they say alligned.
 
  • #33
Arian said:
you are right but saddly human culture likes to say "aligned" only when two bodies are aligned with the sun. Jupiter could be 0* above the sun while Earth could be 90* around the sun, and the two are still alligned. Yet they are not "alligned" with the sun. As most people think, when they say alligned.

Well as my old astronomy prof said when I remarked something like this, any two points define a line and any three (if not colinear) define a triangle, so saying in wonder that two things are aligned or three things are in a triangle is, well, duh.

What's interesting is a syzygy, that is three things in a line, like Earth-Moon-Sun at the Full and New phases of the Moon, or at eclipses of the Moon or Sun. Or like the oppositions of Mars that Tycho observed and Kepler used to discover his laws of planetary motion.
 
  • #34
Actually the Mayan Calander date 2012 is very significant, It's the day we can all throw the Mayan Calander away because it's out of date.:biggrin:
 
  • #35
You have the Mayan Calender?:cool:
 

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