Can Paid Visitors Keep Anders Breivik Content in Prison?

[ThomasT]

I know, and you're complaining about that as if you think no one should ever be let out of jail:

I don't think I said that, and I wouldn't call it complaining, but rather just expressing my take on the situation.

I do think that people who commit what I consider to be serious crimes are sometimes released from prison when they shouldn't be. That is, I think the periods of incarceration for some crimes and some individuals are too short.

I also think that the periods of incarceration for some crimes and some individuals are too long. But these are considerations for another thread.

Regarding Breivik, I think he should be executed and then forgotten.

You seem to be saying the only way to avoid repeat offenders is never to release them.

I'm saying that I think that never allowing serious criminals back into the general society is the most effective, and the only reliable, way to ensure that they will never again commit crimes in the general society.

 

[Curious3141]

During all this, what has been done (courtesy of the state) for the families of ABB's victims?

 

[ThomasT]

During all this, what has been done (courtesy of the state) for the families of ABB's victims?

What can be done? It isn't the state's fault. Anomalies like Breivik happen every now and then. Imo, the best course of action is to confine or dispose of such people as efficiently as possible, then move on.

I suppose, but have no way of knowing, that the families of the victims aren't too concerned with affording Breivik any particular comforts during his prospective lifetime of incarceration.

 

[Curious3141]

What can be done? It isn't the state's fault. Anomalies like Breivik happen every now and then. Imo, the best course of action is to confine or dispose of such people as efficiently as possible, then move on.

I suppose, but have no way of knowing, that the families of the victims aren't too concerned with affording Breivik any particular comforts during his prospective lifetime of incarceration.

My point was rhetorical. So much is being done to make the killer of children comfortable, but what consideration is being afforded to the innocent family of those very children?

 

[ThomasT]

My point was rhetorical. So much is being done to make the killer of children comfortable, but what consideration is being afforded to the innocent family of those very children?

Insofar as proposals regarding Breivik's future comfort and happiness are being considered, then it appears that the interests of the offender are being held above the interests of the victims.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

My point was rhetorical. So much is being done to make the killer of children comfortable, but what consideration is being afforded to the innocent family of those very children?

Indeed. The emphasis on rehabilitation means a kinder gentler penal system. Breivik is not denied having visitors. However, apparently because no one wants to visit him, the state feels it must hire people to keep him company. Prisoners are not denied conjugal visits but because Breivik doesn't have a significant other, why shouldn't the state provide him with a sex partner? In general filling the voids in an inmate's life must be part of the process in making them fit to live in civil society. No?

Let's take this to the limit and say that the only purpose of prison is to separate inmates from the general public until such time as they are rehabilitated. That means every amenity of a normal life should be provided short of being free to travel outside the confinement area. But the confinement area need not be a prison building. It could be a resort where life is similar to the best of civil society, including opportunities for a full social life with members of the opposite (or same) sex.

I think if Norway adopted such a system, people would flock to the country just to commit crimes and enter the "rehabilitation" system. The government could charge them and use the money to help crime victims in Norway.

 

[rootX]

Insofar as proposals regarding Breivik's future comfort and happiness are being considered, then it appears that the interests of the offender are being held above the interests of the victims.

You can either call it keeping Breivik happy or closely monitoring Breivik's mind. If they are intending to keep him alive I would prefer to provide him continuous social company. Further, they might learn how he thinks and how to prevent this catastrophe in future.

why shouldn't the state provide him with a sex partner?

Because this is redundant.

 

[ThomasT]

You can either call it keeping Breivik happy or closely monitoring Breivik's mind. If they are intending to keep him alive I would prefer to provide him continuous social company.

Why? As far as I'm aware, nobody else gets this kind of consideration. This guy killed 69 kids in cold blood.

Further, they might learn how he thinks and how to prevent this catastrophe in future.

I don't know of any reason to believe that this might be possible. In other words, imo, it's a ridiculous consideration.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Because this is redundant.

Why? If he's heterosexual how is it redundant? Even if he's gay, he doesn't seem to have visitors which why the state is trying to hire people to keep him company. Any catastrophe in the future because Breivik was released would be a crime against humanity by those who released him imo.

 

[rootX]

Why? As far as I'm aware, nobody else gets this kind of consideration. This guy killed 69 kids in cold blood.

I don't know of any reason to believe that this might be possible. In other words, imo, it's a ridiculous consideration.

Don't get carried away by emotions to determine how best to deal with Breivik.

 

[rootX]

Why? If he's heterosexual how is it redundant? Even if he's gay, he doesn't seem to have visitors which why the state is trying to hire people to keep him company. Any catastrophe in the future because Breivik was released would be a crime against humanity by those who released him imo.

You can live without sex but you will likely go insane without social company within a month or so.

 

[ThomasT]

Don't get carried away by emotions to determine how best to deal with Breivik.

Don't read anything into my statements that isn't there. Your statement that "they might learn how he thinks and how to prevent this catastrophe in future" is, imo, given current technology, ridiculous. That's all. If you know of some technology that can do this, then please cite it.

 

[ThomasT]

... you will likely go insane without social company within a month or so.

This also seems to me like a ridiculous statement. Where did you get this idea from?

 

[rootX]

Don't read anything into my statements that isn't there.

This is what I read:

killed 69 kids in cold blood

What you want to do now?

Your statement that "they might learn how he thinks and how to prevent this catastrophe in future" is, imo, given current technology, ridiculous. That's all. If you know of some technology that can do this, then please cite it

I meant professional psychologists keeping an eye on him (i.e. studying him) for all his life with the help of the hired friends. This has nothing to do with ground breaking technology.

 

[ThomasT]

Any catastrophe in the future because Breivik was released would be a crime against humanity by those who released him imo.

I agree. Thus, in the view that he's not ever going to be released, rehabilitation isn't a consideration. So the only reason to provide him with any comfort whatsoever is simply to appease some (imo) misguided Norwegians. Any effort to make the remainder of Breivik's life comfortable or happy for him is, imo, absurdly misguided.

It fits that nobody would want to visit Breivik. The state's logic in considering sending strangers to visit him so that he can have some company escapes me.

 

[ThomasT]

This is what I read:

What you want to do now?

Huh? I made a statement of (my current opinion/perception of) fact. Whatever emotional content you read into it is on you. But let's suppose he didn't kill them in cold blood. Let's suppose that he was highly emotional while he was picking them off. Does that change anything? Does that make his actions any less a heinous crime against humanity?

I meant professional psychologists keeping an eye on him (i.e. studying him) for all his life with the help of the hired friends.

As I said, just a waste of time and resources, imo.

This has nothing to do with ground breaking technology.

I agree.

 

[OmCheeto]

Hmm... At a cursory glance, Breivik stuck me as a kind of Kaczynski. But on reading through his wiki bio, IMHO, Breivik isn't even interesting enough to keep alive.

ps. How does Norway deal with dogs with rabies? I've known only one person in my life that abused steroids, and I considered him incurably insane*.

*I have had no credited training in behavioral neuroscience, and therefore my opinions should not be taken seriously.

wiki on rabies
Rabies (pronounced /ˈreɪbiːz/. From Latin: rabies, "madness") is a viral disease that causes acute encephalitis (inflammation of the brain)

More male than male
New research is confirming the relationship between steroids and aggression, while raising questions about the long-term psychological consequences of teen-age steroid abuse.

 

[ThomasT]

Hmm... At a cursory glance, Breivik stuck me as a kind of Kaczynski. But on reading through his wiki bio, IMHO, Breivik isn't even interesting enough to keep alive.

ps. How does Norway deal with dogs with rabies? I've known only one person in my life that abused steroids, and I considered him incurably insane*.

*I have had no credited training in behavioral neuroscience, and therefore my opinions should not be taken seriously.

wiki on rabies
Rabies (pronounced /ˈreɪbiːz/. From Latin: rabies, "madness") is a viral disease that causes acute encephalitis (inflammation of the brain)

More male than male
New research is confirming the relationship between steroids and aggression, while raising questions about the long-term psychological consequences of teen-age steroid abuse.

Interesting post as usual. Apparently Breivik has been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I have known two people who said they were diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. I don't associate with them any more (for many years), and I hope that they're either dead or behind bars. If there's a dark side of the force, then they seemed to me to be into it.

 

[OmCheeto]

Interesting post as usual. Apparently Breivik has been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I have known two people who said they were diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. I don't associate with them any more (for many years), and I hope that they're either dead or behind bars. If there's a dark side of the force, then they seemed to me to be into it.

As a general rule, I devote as little energy and brain matter as possible in regards to Breivikians. To this day, I do not know the name of the guy that murdered John Lennon. I only popped in because of the ludicrous thread title.

I do find it interesting how different societies can be so different. In Iran, they'll hang teenagers for being gay, but in Norway, they cater to mass murderers.

You Love? We murder you.

You Murder? We feed you caviar.

What a strange, mixed up world we live in. As I've said before, it's no wonder the aliens never stop to visit.

 

[ThomasT]

As a general rule, I devote as little energy and brain matter as possible in regards to Breivikians. To this day, I do not know the name of the guy that murdered John Lennon. I only popped in because of the ludicrous thread title.

I do find it interesting how different societies can be so different. In Iran, they'll hang teenagers for being gay, but in Norway, they cater to mass murderers.

You Love? We murder you.

You Murder? We feed you caviar.

What a strange, mixed up world we live in. As I've said before, it's no wonder the aliens never stop to visit.

Succinct and insightful comments, imho. Though I don't think we can be certain that aliens have never visited. Not that I think they have.

Not to diminish the force of your well phrased, imo, comments, but I do think that the practices/behaviors of other cultures are understandable, and where they differ from ours, then it's understandable why we might disagree with them.

In other words, the world, imo, isn't really so strange or mixed up. It's just not yet, for the most part, united. Not that it ever will be.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Interesting post as usual. Apparently Breivik has been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic.

The first psychiatric panel came up with that diagnosis. A second panel voided it and declared Breivik fit to stand trial which is ongoing at the present time. Most terrorists are not legally insane. They are fanatics, and follow their own cruel logic. In fact Al Qaeda used to carefully screen "applicants" to weed out the crazy ones. They wanted cool headed methodical operatives who would kill for the cause. Schizophrenia is a disabling disease and, without treatment, the afflicted can't even manage their own lives, let alone plan and carry out a complex operation. Breivik has adopted a cause not much different from other far right wing fanatics. He's never showed signs of hallucinations as far as I know where for example "God" or "Satan" told him to kill.

 

[OmCheeto]

The first psychiatric panel came up with that diagnosis. A second panel voided it and declared Breivik fit to stand trial which is ongoing at the present time. Most terrorists are not legally insane. They are fanatics, and follow their own cruel logic. In fact Al Qaeda used to carefully screen "applicants" to weed out the crazy ones. They wanted cool headed methodical operatives who would kill for the cause. Schizophrenia is a disabling disease and, without treatment, the afflicted can't even manage their own lives, let alone plan and carry out a complex operation. Breivik has adopted a cause not much different from other far right wing fanatics. He's never showed signs of hallucinations as far as I know where for example "God" or "Satan" told him to kill.

I don't think the exact diagnosis is relevant. There are 7 billion human brains on this planet, and I would describe them in 7 billion different ways.

But I've only known 1 person on steroids(that I know of). It was enough.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/04/19/norway-breivik-trial-thursday.html

Confessed mass killer Anders Behring Breivik claimed Thursday he prepared to slaughter dozens of people in Norway with steroids, meditation and by sharpening his aim through playing computer games for more than a year.

In a chilling summary, Breivik told an Oslo court he took steroids to build physical strength and meditated to "de-emotionalize" himself before the bombing and shooting rampage that left 77 people dead.

His lack of remorse and matter-of-fact description of weapons and tactics — he even considered using a flame thrower — was deeply disturbing to families of the victims, most of whom were teenagers.

This is a mirror of the man I once knew. I was so afraid of him, I installed polycarbonate windows in my bedroom facing the street. I could either kill him, or he would kill me.

Fortunately for me, he died a month after I installed the bullet proof windows. Heart complications due to steroid abuse, was the rumour I heard. He was 26.

The polycarbonate has been put to better use since then (1998), as a cover for my fish tank.

I would elaborate on why I thought he was dangerous, but it just sounds like the script to "Fight Club" when I think about it now. So much anger. So much angst.

and nothing to focus his anger at, except...



I'm not a big fan of violent movies. But "Fight Club" really fascinated me. I could see myself in there, somewhere...

 

[NeoDevin]

As far as I know, incarceration or execution are the only reliable means of preventing criminals from committing crimes in the general population.

Then perhaps you should do some more research on the subject, rather than reaching your conclusions based entirely on your own ignorance.

 

[OmCheeto]

Then perhaps you should do some more research on the subject, rather than reaching your conclusions based entirely on your own ignorance.

I don't think ThomasT is ignorant. I think he may be thinking about different types of criminals than you are. There the people caught with more than an ounce of dope kind of criminals, and then there are the ones that hurt others, with no remorse. I would imagine the latter are the one's that Thom is speaking of.

Once you get to a certain age, you end up having met lots of both types. The latter deserve no compassion, and will suck the life out of you, and I, and society, if allowed.

hmm..., I think I've devoted one too many brain cells to the discussion of this worthless A.B. piece of...

unsubscribe.

 

[lisab]

I don't think ThomasT is ignorant. I think he may be thinking about different types of criminals than you are. There the people caught with more than an ounce of dope kind of criminals, and then there are the ones that hurt others, with no remorse. I would imagine the latter are the one's that Thom is speaking of.

Once you get to a certain age, you end up having met lots of both types. The latter deserve no compassion, and will suck the life out of you, and I, and society, if allowed.

hmm..., I think I've devoted one too many brain cells to the discussion of this worthless A.B. piece of...

unsubscribe.

Yeah, I agree. I keep looking at this thread the way I would look at a train wreck. I don't want to look but I can't help myself.

I have *very* strong opinions about this. I've been trying to find a way to say them without making them sound so...personal.

Being civilized is great. Yay for civilization! But there's a line beyond which being tolerant is an effete and inappropriate response, imo. At some point, we must recognize evil for what it is and be decisive. Don't waste your precious and short time on this planet worrying about the perpetrators. Just do something to ensure they never are free again, and move on with your own life.

I can't believe this hand-wringing concerning AB's lack of play mates is shared widely among Norwegians. Certainly his victims' families could not share it, and where is the concern for their feelings?

 

[zoobyshoe]

. At some point, we must recognize evil for what it is and be decisive. Don't waste your precious and short time on this planet worrying about the perpetrators. Just do something to ensure they never are free again, and move on with your own life.

I can't believe this hand-wringing concerning AB's lack of play mates is shared widely among Norwegians. Certainly his victims' families could not share it, and where is the concern for their feelings?

Cutting through the inflammatory BS about "evil", the only authentically important assessment to make about him is that he's dangerous. He has to be locked away from society, no question. To make sure he has no chance of escape by means of taking a hostage, they're putting him in isolation, away from the other inmates. But leaving him there without human contact would be cruel and unusual punishment, so they're trying to find people to visit him.

Why is isolation thought "cruel and unusual"? He's not simply going to be bored in isolation. Isolation under conditions of helplessness does, in fact, lead to psychosis. People, in fact, can become psychotic simply by finding themselves in an intensive care unit:

What causes ICU psychosis?
Environmental Causes
• Sensory deprivation: A patient being put in a room that often has no windows, and is away from family, friends, and all that is familiar and comforting.
• Sleep disturbance and deprivation: The constant disturbance and noise with the hospital staff coming at all hours to check vital signs, give medications, etc.
• Continuous light levels: Continuous disruption of the normal biorhythms with lights on continually (no reference to day or* night).
• Stress: Patients in an ICU frequently feel the almost total loss of control over their life.
• Lack of orientation: A patient's loss of time and date.
• Medical monitoring: The continuous monitoring of the patient's vital signs, and the noise monitoring devices produce can be disturbing and create sensory overload.

http://www.medicinenet.com/icu_psychosis/article.htm

Oliver Sacks reported that many of the Post-Encephalitic patients he treated became psychotic upon admission to his facility, and hallucinated from the time they were admitted to their deaths. This had nothing to do with their pre-existing condition, mind you. A lot of people lose their minds simply due to the transition from being free to being institutionalized. Suddenly someone else is telling them when to eat, sleep, bathe, and they're robbed of all privacy, and forced to live in ugly, stripped down surroundings.

The thread title is calculated to inflame, and the article title is just about equally misrepresentative of what's going on here. It's not about 'keeping him happy' or 'finding him friends'. This isn't the first slip on some slippery slope toward creating a club med for him. It's a minimal prophylactic against him becoming psychotic in isolation (or, at least, more psychotic than he is).

 

[arildno]

It is commonly asserted that Norway has very low recidivist rates. Perhaps we have, but I think you might be interested in looking at a detailed official Norwegian statistic on that.

Here, this compares the recidivist rates among those having a formal charge in 2004 (columns) versus those of them charged again in the interval 2005-2009 (rows).

This is both for felonies and misdemeanors.

The overall recidivist rate is 48.2%

Translating the categories in the detailed sub-matrix, we have:
1. "Økonomisk kriminalitet" ("fiscal/economical" crimes, like embezzlement, tax evasion etc.)

2. "Annen vinningskriminalitet" ("other crimes for profit", i.e, typically shoplifting, theft, robbery etc)"

3. "Voldskriminalitet" ("violent crime")

4. "Seksualkriminalitet" ("sexual crimes")

5. "Narkotikakriminalitet" (drug-related crimes)

6. "Skadeverk" (vandalism, like grafitti spraying, breaking windows, arson)

7. "Miljøkriminalitet" ("environmental crimes", like illegal dumping of toxic waste)

8. "Trafikkriminalitet" (traffic-related crimes, like drunk driving)

9. "Annen kriminalitet" (other crimes/misdemeanors)as is readily seen, the major factor that makes the recidivist rate so low is are the "traffic&other" crimes categories.

For example, those charged with violent crimes in 2004 had an almost 60% recidivist rate during 2005-2009
http://www.ssb.no/aarbok/tab/tab-154.html

 

[zoobyshoe]

This chart of comparative incarceration rates is extremely interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

The U.S. has the highest incarceration rate of all at 730 people per 100,000.

Norway's way down at 73 per 100,000.

I'd like to know why we in the U.S. have such a high incarceration rate.

 

[arildno]

This chart of comparative incarceration rates is extremely interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

The U.S. has the highest incarceration rate of all at 730 people per 100,000.

Norway's way down at 73 per 100,000.

I'd like to know why we in the U.S. have such a high incarceration rate.

I would think that the differential reaction towards petty crime is an important factor in understanding the differences.
That is, I believe, there are lower barriers in the US to investigate, charge, prosecute, convict and incarcerate petty criminals than in Norway.

Furthermore, generous welfare schemes may well mean that the local scrounger class in Norway do not drift into criminal behaviour as easily than in the US.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I would think that the differential reaction towards petty crime is an important factor in understanding the differences.
That is, I believe, there are lower barriers in the US to investigate, charge, prosecute, convict and incarcerate petty criminals than in Norway.

I really have no idea. What sorts of things do you consider "petty crime"?

 

[arildno]

I really have no idea. What sorts of things do you consider "petty crime"?

Minor shop lifting, for example. From what I've heard, Miranda laws are used quite heavily in such cases, as well. In Norway, I THINK (not know!) that such crimes are rarely prosecuted at all, and in the event of a successful prosecution, you'll end up with some fine and enforced back payment scheme, rather than having to serve a prison term.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Minor shop lifting, for example. From what I've heard, Miranda laws are used quite heavily in such cases, as well. In Norway, I THINK (not know!) that such crimes are rarely prosecuted at all, and in the event of a successful prosecution, you'll end up with some fine and enforced back payment scheme, rather than having to serve a prison term.

They certainly prosecute shoplifters here. Whether or not they're jailed...? It probably depends on the amount taken and on the number of prior offenses.

I looked for a recidivism chart like yours but none are classified the same way. If we found something that compared the recidivism rate for same crimes in the same time periods it would be clearer. I noticed that a large percentage of the recidivism here was laid down to parol violation as opposed to outright committing another crime. (Not that parol violation isn't illegal, but it's a crime of a different nature; scofflaw sort of thing.) In general, though, it looks like the recidivism rate is higher here.

 

[arildno]

I would think that the category "parole violation" is included in our "other crimes" statistics; at least, it is the category that seems to fit the best from the chart made by SSB (Central Bureau of Statistics)

 

[arildno]

Another thing:
What is meant by the "incarceration rate" in the US?
If it means average number of inmates per 100.000, then the Norwegian and the US numbers are comparable (now, that number is 90, according to the 2011-report from Central Criminal Care Unit).
However, in 2011, there was 201 pr.100.000 "effected verdicts" that led to incarceration.

 

[ThomasT]

There have been a few interesting (perhaps somewhat off) topics posed in this thread. Maybe those who have strong opinions on those general topics might start a new thread or two (as this one seems to have run its course)?

I'm particularly curious about the idea that isolation necessarily causes psychological problems.