Becoming a mathematician - I am so depressed

[Levis2]

I know this sounds awful. I know this is just a bunch of whining to you guys, but this really upsets. I have almost entered a state of depression, simply due to this issue.

Im a 17 year old high school student, living in denmark. I live and breathe mathematics! It is my passion, my way of life, and i feel it always will be. It is my greatest hobby, and my dearest pastime. And like luther, i have a dream - i want to obtain a math PhD, and become a mathematician working with mathematical research and teaching at college. I want to become a college professor so hard, that its basically all i care about.

There is just some complications involved in my dream:

1. My iq is approx. 135. When i first found out, it was devastating to me. I had done a lot of reading about mathematicians, and to me it seemed like you would have no chance what so ever to be competitive in higher end mathematics, if you are not 150+. I have tried to forget that i am of low intelligence, but i simply can't. Everytime i work with math, i am always reminded reminded that i am not smart enough to accomplish my goal.

2. Instances have been seen, where low iq ppl (like feynman) are excellent at their field of study. This is just not my case - i have never been a child prodigy, learning calculus at age 12 and so on. I did teach myself calculus at age 16, but that is only 1 year prior to our high school introduction to the subject. It seems that i am of low intelligence, and i do not have a mathematical talent.

3. People around me keep saying that if someone can complete a math PhD, then it must be me. This is of great annoyance to me! Out of all the 600 pupils on my school, i am the best at mathematics. I teach in the schools "homework help cafe", even the 3. year students despite the fact I've just started 2nd year. My math teacher says i am the most brilliant math student he has encountered in 20 years of teaching A level high school math (the 3 year course).

I have created proofs on my own for the Taylor series, the arc length formula etc. I can solve differential equations such as y''(x)+xy'(x)+y(x)=0 by series solutions and understanding what i am doing.

In my head the guy described in the above paragraphs sounds like someone capable of completing a math phd - but the truth is, that's not enough! Why is it that in our subject, mathematics, you have to be an utter genius in order to qualify for a phd program? You can't imagine how discouraged i get, when i read about studying mathematics on the internet. Higher education math seems to be something reserved for the high iq geniuses, and the rest might as well just apply for another job. Why do you have to be able to complete your bachelor at age 10 in mathematics, but not in other fields? I am no child prodigy. I am just a young guy, with a passionate dream about contributing to the world of mathematics.

This text turned out to be one big whine i know - but this issue is ruining my life. You guys - who are so unfairly gifted - have no idea what it is like to have a mind that is so determined to contribute to mathematics, but is simply lacking the raw processing power to do so. I would give everything for a drug capable of eradicating my passion. This sounds horrible, but you have no idea how hard it is to want something so much, but knowing you will never be able to achieve it.

Im sorry, but i had to get this out to someone who understands me. Everyone around me seem to think I'm crazy. If i couldn't complete a math phd, who could? The answer is: The prodigies, the naturals and the people who are born to do maths. I cannot say that i am among equals on this board, but at least i am among people, who understand my deep frustration. Imagine if your mathematical talent was taken away from you, leaving only the deep desire to do and practice math - how would you feel?

 

[Diracula]

IQ tests generally measure things like pattern recognition. This isn't the same thing as math ability. There are more intricate tests that may measure other things, but these aren't equivalent to math ability either. They may be correlated with math talent, but once you get beyond a couple standard deviations (which 135 generally is), it's not going to really tell you much. Basically the only thing it MIGHT tell you is that you aren't going to be a math professor if your IQ is below 100.

The fact that your teacher told you you're the best math student he's seen in 20 (!) years tells a lot more. You probably have the talent to be a mathematician if what he says is even remotely true.

I also don't know where you got the idea that only math prodigies complete math PhDs. Do you really think every math professor was a math prodigy, let alone every PhD?

Hell, you may be a prodigy yourself based on what your teacher said. Being a prodigy doesn't necessarily mean being good at every piece of math you encounter and teaching yourself calculus at 12.

 

[micromass]

Where are the sites that say that you need to have a high IQ to do a math PhD?? I have never read that... ever.

There are three things that are important in order to be a good research mathematician:
Talent: You must be born with a little bit of talent. I won't deny this. But if your high school teacher says that you're good, then this usually is enough.
Hard work: This is much more important than talent. You must really prepare to work hard and the breath math every single day. This is where many people fail.
Enjoyment: Enjoy what you do. This is the single most important criterium to decide whether somebody will be successful in math.

I don't think you're whining, I had the same doubts as you. But thing is that you just need to try. You'll see how it turns up.

Here's something that took a long time for me to learn: IQ is just a number. It is meaningless. It means whatever meaning you give to it.

Oh, and if you're getting depressed about it and if you keep obsessing about it, then you might want to see a councelor. Talking with professional people is a great way to relieve stress. And maybe there's something they can do for you.

 

[Levis2]

IQ tests generally measure things like pattern recognition. This isn't the same thing as math ability. There are more intricate tests that may measure other things, but these aren't equivalent to math ability either. They may be correlated with math talent, but once you get beyond a couple standard deviations (which 135 generally is), it's not going to really tell you much. Basically the only thing it MIGHT tell you is that you aren't going to be a math professor if your IQ is below 100.

The fact that your teacher told you you're the best math student he's seen in 20 (!) years tells a lot more. You probably have the talent to be a mathematician if what he says is even remotely true.

I also don't know where you got the idea that only math prodigies complete math PhDs. Do you really think every math professor was a math prodigy, let alone every PhD?

Hell, you may be a prodigy yourself based on what your teacher said. Being a prodigy doesn't necessarily mean being good at every piece of math you encounter and teaching yourself calculus at 12.

But every time i read about a mathematician, they always have iqs > 145-150. Even every time i read about the connection between intelligence and mathematics, i just end up in forums with questions such as "What does your iq need to be in order to become a mathematician" with answers such as "Hello, I've completed a math phd and my iq is 145+ ..." It it so god damn discouraging to read, that i could almost kill myself. I have always been a very competitive person, and i might have a tendency to envy people of their abilities :( Everytime i read the biography of mathematicians, even lesser famous ones, they have always been brilliant from an early age. I have never met a mathematician in real life, yet asked him about his iq. From what I've learned from the internet, i would say that i can conclude that you almost have to be a child prodigy in order to obtain a phd in maths, and be even brighter to contribute ..

I would trade 85 years of life with my slow brain, for just 15 years of life with the brain of this guy: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/26/12-year-old-genius-expands-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/
How wonderful it must be to be so intelligent - to reach such levels of enlightenment is just fantastic, at age 12! When i was 12, i was simply playing with sticks. I want to do things like that, but this stupid vessel of a body is not capable!

I have no idea if my math teacher may just have gotten unlucky with his students the past 20 years of his teachings, as it sounds rather unlikely, especially since I'm not very intelligent compared to the average mathematician. But nevertheless, that's what he is saying ^^

 

[daveb]

The mathematical talent on these boards was accomplished through hard work mostly - talent probably played second fiddle to most people here. And being able to teach yourself (and more importantly understand them) aspects of higher order math such as calcuus or differential equations IS talent.

 

[micromass]

But every time i read about a mathematician, they always have iqs > 145-150. Even every time i read about the connection between intelligence and mathematics, i just end up in forums with questions such as "What does your iq need to be in order to become a mathematician" with answers such as "Hello, I've completed a math phd and my iq is 145+ ..." It it so god damn discouraging to read, that i could almost kill myself. I have always been a very competitive person, and i might have a tendency to envy people of their abilities :( Everytime i read the biography of mathematicians, even lesser famous ones, they have always been brilliant from an early age. I have never met a mathematician in real life, yet asked him about his iq. From what I've learned from the internet, i would say that i can conclude that you almost have to be a child prodigy in order to obtain a phd in maths, and be even brighter to contribute ..

I would trade 85 years of life with my slow brain, for just 15 years of life with the brain of this guy: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/26/12-year-old-genius-expands-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/
How wonderful it must be to be so intelligent - to reach such levels of enlightenment is just fantastic, at age 12! When i was 12, i was simply playing with sticks. I want to do things like that, but this stupid vessel of a body is not capable!

I have no idea if my math teacher may just have gotten unlucky with his students the past 20 years of his teachings, as it sounds rather unlikely, especially since I'm not very intelligent compared to the average mathematician. But nevertheless, that's what he is saying ^^

Seriously, stop saying that you need >145 IQ to have a PhD in mathematics. It is simply untrue. I work with mathematicians everyday, and I can assure you that there are many which do not have such an IQ. I have never had my IQ measured, but I guess it would be something about 120. And still I can do advanced mathematics.

You really seem to have a very low self-esteem. Take this advice: see a counciler or therapist. They will help you with it.

 

[Diracula]

OK, I got to ask, what is your source for this stuff claiming you need an IQ of 145+ to get a PhD in math. And why are you not listing the IQ test. You do know every test has a different standard deviation right?

 

[Levis2]

To answer micro mass and diracula; I have no direct source, it is just my conclusion from doing research about mathematicians in general. Obviously all the great minds of maths had a high iq - tao and all the other prodigies. But when i search in regular forums, it seems that regular forum users who conduct mathematics also have an iq of 145+ (or at least that's what they state), and this is with standard deviation 15, like my score of 135. This is why it bothers me so much - if it was just one or 2 sources, claiming that you had to have such a high iq to be competitive in math, i could look past it. But it just seems that the more research i do about studying math in general, the more it seems to me that you have to be an utter genius to do something useful in math.

Just look at the criterias for getting a research position at a university - you have to hold a phd in math. This is according to my impression an accomplishment reserved for the quickest of minds - and on top of that, it is required of you to have published several quality articles, bringing something into math. Let's say i ended up barely getting a phd - how the hell am i suppose to come up with a new publication, contributing to mathematics? I am nowhere near smart enough to figure out something innovative right after college, and to be truly great you have to do this while in college. I just can't see how this can be done by a mediocre person like me? this is why i think my level of intelligence is not enough.

But yes micro mass, self esteem is a problematic area of mine - i basically have very low self esteem, in pretty much everything ^^

 

[micromass]

This is according to my impression an accomplishment reserved for the quickest of minds

False. I have met many mathematicians who were quite slow in their thinking process. But it is perseverance which bring them to the top.

how the hell am i suppose to come up with a new publication, contributing to mathematics?

Don't worry about that now. That are worries for later. Enjoy your mathematics now.

But yes micro mass, self esteem is a problematic area of mine - i basically have very low self esteem, in pretty much everything ^^

Seriously, see a psychiatrist. You have a low self-esteem, you sound depressed, you have no self-confidence, you have obsessive thoughts, etc. This will hurt you much more than a lack of IQ (which is not important at all). Go seek professional help, it'll be a huge relief for you. If you don't, then things will only get worse. I'm talking from experience here.

 

[Fredrik]

1. My iq is approx. 135. When i first found out, it was devastating to me. I had done a lot of reading about mathematicians, and to me it seemed like you would have no chance what so ever to be competitive in higher end mathematics, if you are not 150+. I have tried to forget that i am of low intelligence, but i simply can't. Everytime i work with math, i am always reminded reminded that i am not smart enough to accomplish my goal.

Seriously, your concern is even sillier than all those 21-year-olds who come here to ask if they're too old to start studying at the university. If you have a 135 IQ and your teachers say you're doing great, then you're smart enough. However, the fact that you're getting depressed about not being perfect when you're actually very good is a serious issue that you really need to work on. If any of your current flaws will be a problem for you in your career and your life, that's the one, not your "low" intelligence. To be honest, you seem quite irrational. You demand things from yourself that only comic book geniuses can pull off, and you don't even see that the "evidence" that suggests that you need to be a genius to even try is very weak.

But every time i read about a mathematician, they always have iqs > 145-150.
...
Everytime i read the biography of mathematicians, even lesser famous ones, they have always been brilliant from an early age.

That's because those are the stories that people like to read. You have no reason at all to think that the authors didn't carefully select who they wanted to write about, and then exaggerated the stories.

I would trade 85 years of life with my slow brain, for just 15 years of life with the brain of this guy: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/26/12-year-old-genius-expands-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/
How wonderful it must be to be so intelligent - to reach such levels of enlightenment is just fantastic, at age 12! When i was 12, i was simply playing with sticks. I want to do things like that, but this stupid vessel of a body is not capable!

This is crazy. That guy has a few years head start on you, and is a bit better at doing IQ tests than you were five years ago. But he suffers from Aspberger's, and is delusional enough to think that the big bang theory is something that can be "debunked". You shouldn't envy him at all, unless he's doing Morena Baccarin for extra credit.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I don't understand your issue. If you like mathematics, and claim that your professor praises your skills in it, why are you here condemning yourself? I probably have a very low IQ but I love learning differential geometry/topology regardless because, well, I like it. Simple as that. Micro watches Spongebob 24/7 but he is amazing at math, what does that tell you =D?

 

[Kevin_Axion]

An autistic man takes the same I.Q test as a non-autistic man. Both men are of equal mathematical ability. Who scores higher on the test? The point I'm making is that I.Q tests are incredibly biased and attempt to set in stone what intelligence is (a number) even though we don't even know what constitutes intelligence. Math is the study of formal patterns, an I.Q tests recognition of formal patterns. So to some extent it measures intelligence i.e why most of the time it can distinguish between the less intelligent and more intelligent in some interval (80-120). I took an I.Q test albeit an online one and my teacher did too whom has a math degree. He got twenty points lower then me yet if we were to talk about math in front of a crowd of people they would surely think he is of greater intelligence. The results are arbitrary ergo the I.Q test can't be trusted to some measure as a test of intelligence and furthermore of mathematical ability.

 

[Levis2]

Fredrik and micro mass, i do agree with you that i need to work on my self-esteem. I might even see a therapist about it, since it is slightly inhibiting other factors of my life - it is certainly a great nuisance.

but the fact is, I'm not very good - that's the point. The stuff that i do is easy. Who cares if i can proof some arc length formula, or the taylor series. Lots of people have come up with proofs like that by themselves, it is not extraordinary. In order to gain success in math, i have to be extraordinary - otherwise, what is the point of trying? I know i really enjoy math. The thought about getting out of bed and working with math all day long for a salary is just amazing to me. But i don't want to be a lousy mathematician.

WannabeNewton:

It wasn't my professor, it was my high school teacher :) I don't know if it is that much of a compliment that he thinks of my skills as extraordinary, since its high school and not college.

 

[Levis2]

An autistic man takes the same I.Q test as a non-autistic man. Both men are of equal mathematical ability. Who scores higher on the test? The point I'm making is that I.Q tests are incredibly biased and attempt to set in stone what intelligence is (a number) even though we don't even know what constitutes intelligence. Math is the study of formal patterns, an I.Q tests recognition of formal patterns. So to some extent it measures intelligence i.e why most of the time it can distinguish between the less intelligent and more intelligent in some interval (80-120). I took an I.Q test albeit an online one and my teacher did too whom has a math degree. He got twenty points lower then me yet if we were to talk about math in front of a crowd of people they would surely think he is of greater intelligence. The results are arbitrary ergo the I.Q test can't be trusted to some measure as a test of intelligence and furthermore of mathematical ability.

You may very well be right - but the issue is, that most high-iq people say this :) I do not know whether is should take it as the truth or just modesty. I really do hope you are right - maybe all is not lost for me.

 

[Fredrik]

I think you would be surprised to learn just how ordinary math professors are. They are more like Michael Richards than Reed Richards.

 

[micromass]

but the fact is, I'm not very good - that's the point. The stuff that i do is easy. Who cares if i can proof some arc length formula, or the taylor series. Lots of people have come up with proofs like that by themselves, it is not extraordinary. In order to gain success in math, i have to be extraordinary - otherwise, what is the point of trying? I know i really enjoy math. The thought about getting out of bed and working with math all day long for a salary is just amazing to me. But i don't want to be a lousy mathematician.

If you go into math, then it must only be because of your love for the subject. You must say: screw everything, I love math, so I'm going to go into math.
You seem to want to go into math because you want prestige and honor. If this is the case, don't go studying math. Looking for succes in math is not the correct mindset to have.

 

[Choppy]

Levis2 - it sounds to me like you're using this IQ thing as an excuse not to pursue your passion.

You'll run into enough roadblocks in your life. There's no point in creating artificial ones. If math really is your passion, then pursue it until you can't anymore - not because someone tells you that it's not possible, but because you struggle too much with the problems and lose passion for them (if that ever happens at all).

 

[Kevin_Axion]

Fredrik and micro mass, i do agree with you that i need to work on my self-esteem. I might even see a therapist about it, since it is slightly inhibiting other factors of my life - it is certainly a great nuisance.

but the fact is, I'm not very good - that's the point. The stuff that i do is easy. Who cares if i can proof some arc length formula, or the taylor series. Lots of people have come up with proofs like that by themselves, it is not extraordinary. In order to gain success in math, i have to be extraordinary - otherwise, what is the point of trying? I know i really enjoy math. The thought about getting out of bed and working with math all day long for a salary is just amazing to me. But i don't want to be a lousy mathematician.

WannabeNewton:

It wasn't my professor, it was my high school teacher :) I don't know if it is that much of a compliment that he thinks of my skills as extraordinary, since its high school and not college.

Are you aware of how mathematical learning works? It generally starts on primary principles i.e arithmetical operations. Following that, one finds proofs for simple mathematical ideas and learns algebra. The process is continuous and builds upon the principles of the previous steps. There is no apex but a perpetual climb upwards like Penrose's stairs. You cannot leap ahead of these steps because missing them would be a flaw in structure and knowledge. If you're dissatisfied with your proofs the rigour and beauty can only get greater and before you know it, you may be deriving a proof of the Riemann Hypothesis. At this point, it isn't reasonable. Taylor series proofs are impressive and are among the first steps to becoming a mathematician.

 

[mathwonk]

have you had any professional psychological help? or have you had some scary stuff happen in your life? it makes no sense to most of us who worry about our actual failings that you, who are having mostly success, are so worried.Would you rather have a measured IQ of 185 and still not be able to prove anything, or have a measured IQ of 92 and be solving problems independently. Apparently you prefer the former, and we don't get it.

depression is a sickness caused i think by a chemical imbalance, it does not have logical reasons. most of us wind up taking pills for ours. and it helps frequently. you might get checked out though.

 

[Functor97]

I agree with Mathwonk and micromass, it sounds like you have depression, which is quite common amongst teenagers and high achievers, i suggest you look into getting that sorted before you worry more about a Phd.

Why do you want a mathematics Phd? Is it to make you feel intelligent? To vindicate a belief in yourself? Or is it because you can't imagine doing anything else? Could you see yourself as a Physicist, Engineer or Economist? If you can't enjoy pure mathematics maybe you should look into some of those careers? If not, and you simply love mathematical beauty, then i am having trouble seeing the problem!

 

[Diracula]

There's actually a very rational way to look at this even if we assume you need the magical 145+ IQ to be a math professor (which you don't, but anyway...).

Everyone's mind develops at different rates. The 12 year old genius probably plateaus a lot earlier than the average person. You may peak later. This is actually a good thing if true because you have the emotional maturity (assuming you deal with the low self-esteem and obsessive-compulsive thing) to complement the math ability. You'll probably be able to produce more math over your career. And you can produce a lot of math over your career if your teacher is right.

Also, what do you think happens when you do math? You learn new concepts, which actually causes your brain to rewire itself and form new connections. You become smarter and better at math the more you do. This may even increase your IQ if you care about such things (which you shouldn't). You can train for IQ tests. I wouldn't recommend doing that though because it's not exactly a useful skill to have.

So yeah. Even if you aren't smart enough now to produce new math you can get to that point the more you work at it.

 

[Levis2]

Well - you guys might actually be right. I don't know if i am actually depressed, but i certainly do have problems with self-esteem. I think too much about stuff - and i set my aims too high. I have an underlying psychological law, that dictates me to have success in what i do. I must be good at what i do - i think its hardwired into me. On top of that, i am a complete pessimist and i posses a great amount of skepticism.

This is where my problem lies - i love math. No doubt whatsoever. I want to work with math for the rest of my life, for now that is certain. But then the "specs" of my mind and body, notifies my brain that there might be a problem regarding performance in math - i may not be smart enough, due to the fact that I'm not a prodigy and so on ... this doesn't work along with the fact that i need to be good at what i do, so I'm stuck in some kind of conflict: On one side, i want to study math. On the other side, i need to be great at what i do, no matter what. Now that i doubt i will be able to make a good mathematician, my brain is telling me that i shouldn't be a mathematician, and i can't become a college professor.

The reason i want a math phd, is because this is a requirement for at least being considered for a teaching/research position in higher math education.

I don't want to become anything else than a mathematician, because math is what i like. I can't stand economy, engineering etc. I could definitely see myself as a physicist, since i do really like that subject as well - but again, my brain tells me I'm not smart enough to become a physicist.

Lol - when i lay it out like that, i really sound like a person who needs professional help ^^

Diracula:

I really hope that is true - but again, my family has no records of academic success/talent, and people do say intelligence is inherited? Or am i wrong? It just seems like all the scientist who are really quick to begin college, end up being the greatest. I don't think I've even read about a famous mathematician/physicist who did not start college early. Oh wait einstein didn't - but he was somewhat of a prodigy as well i guess

 

[micromass]

On the other side, i need to be great at what i do, no matter what.

Why?? Isn't it enough to enjoy what you do?? Why do you need to be "great" or "the best"??

 

[Kevin_Axion]

You're smart from what I can tell. If I showed you your post to someone my age and identified where you stated you can solve differential equations and prove power series their response would be: "What is a differential equation" or more commonly "Math? Forget it." You have the intelligence and clearly have the interest and if you impede any progress beyond that point you will never be a mathematician which is in itself more dissatisfying than the prospect of becoming a mathematician but not a great one.

 

[Functor97]

From what i recall Grothendieck never believed he was a "prodigy", he certainly did not see himself as a student who would do well in Mathematical olympiads. However he was most certainly one of the greatest mathematicians of the 20th century and his creativity was astounding. If you love the subject, that is all you need.

As for the post about the prodigy about to disprove relativity. Spare us. That is utter rubbish, if the boy thinks that he can "disprove relativity" then he isn't as intelligent or as well read in the physics literature as the journalists seem to claim.

 

[ahsanxr]

I think you're highly mistaken that all or even most math professors were prodigies and are extremely smart with 150+ IQs. Sure, you need to have a certain amount of natural ability to do well in math, but you certainly seem to possesses that if your high school teacher says that you're one of the best he's had and if you're doing differential equations at a young age. Being a prodigy certainly isn't a requirement for going into math. Stop depressing over how you may not be good enough and why not just give it a try?

 

[BruceW]

Levis2 - If you want to do maths, then do it. Don't be put off by thinking you won't be the best. You should decide what you want from life, then go for it. Everyone has doubts about themselves. Also, if you're too worried about it being perfect, then you might miss out on doing something really fulfilling.

 

[TheCool]

I'll echo what a few other posters have said, that you may want to seek psychiatric help. If you really need professional help, none of the comments here are going to permanently change your outlook on life and career.

It just seems like all the scientist who are really quick to begin college, end up being the greatest. I don't think I've even read about a famous mathematician/physicist who did not start college early. Oh wait einstein didn't - but he was somewhat of a prodigy as well i guess

The emboldened sentence is not entirely true. I recall stories of child prodigies here in the U.S. who started college early but never became great scientists. I think it's reasonable to assume that such people are, on average, less likely to make huge discoveries in science. Some prodigies fold under the pressure of being "great" at what they do. Some simply give up the moment they encounter something that they actually have to work at. And still others become wildly successful. But who's to say how frequent that is?

I can tell you, for certain, that math prodigies are extremely rare. More rare than music prodigies, painting prodigies etc.

In fact, most famous mathematicians were not prodigies. Indeed, the vast majority of mathematicians, famous or not, are not even exposed to "real" mathematics until they're well into their 20s. The good thing about math though, is that it's never "complete". As long as there are humans, there will be unsolved problems in math (maybe). So don't view it as a race. That will not sufficiently motivate you to put up with all of the grunt work that preceeds the glamour. Just find an area that highly interests you, and try to become an expert of sorts. Pose your own problems, try to find solutions.

 

[Robert1986]

Uh-Huh, and if you saw Beautiful Mind would you think you would need to have Schizophrenia to be successful? I don't think so. You have read stories about really genius math guys. Why? Because these are the ones people write about. There are probably 25 or so math profs at my school. You probably haven't read a single thing about them. Does this make them stupid? No. They are ordinary people whose job just happens to be doing math. Here's an idea: read the book I Want To Be A Mathematician: An Automathography. It is by mathematician Paul Halmos. Now, there aren't too many people who would disagree that Halmos was a good mathematician. However, he got into the math Ph.D. because he failed in the philosophy Ph.D. He was unfunded. And, to top it all off, he made a B in Calculus. I'd be willing to bet that the average mathematician is much closer to Halmos than to Gauss. So, to put a fine point on it: quit whining!

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

IQ is ********, it's just something created by psychologists to measure people. Ok, bs maybe a strong term, it is ok to see if someone is intelligent or dumb, if you have 80 IQ, well it's pretty bad, but if you have 120, 140 or 180, it doesn't really make a difference, except that you're really good at these iq tests.
Also most mathematicians iq's you read about are estimations, nobody really knows what gauss iq was, but since he accomplished so much they think he probably had 180 iq.

 

[cobalt124]

Apologies if this seems rushed or disjointed or long, repeats what other posters have said (needs re-emphasising anyway), and for possibly sounding like I want to slap some sense into you (I do), but you need a serious (and very well intended) butt-kicking:

i have a dream - i want to obtain a math PhD, and become a mathematician working with mathematical research and teaching at college. I want to become a college professor so hard, that its basically all i care about.

Seems like a reasonable well thought out dream on the face of it.

IQ is irrelevant. There must be loads of threads in PF that will convince you of that, even one about famous scientists having low IQ's (Feynman?). Ah, I see you know that. You seem to be beating yourself up over nothing.

This is just not my case - i have never been a child prodigy, learning calculus at age 12 and so on. I did teach myself calculus at age 16, but that is only 1 year prior to our high school introduction to the subject. It seems that i am of low
intelligence, and i do not have a mathematical talent.

You are seeing this in the wrong perspective. Stop beating yourself up. It would be more productive to be inspired by the likes of Feynman than try to be like them, you cannot make the comparison because at the end of the day you are you.

It seems that i am of low intelligence, and i do not have a mathematical talent.

Crap. Just to emphasise this.

This is of great annoyance to me!

Listening is usually more productive than being annoyed. And listening is different to agreeing. And anyway it sounds like a compliment. From what I am reading you have all the qualities required to complete a maths Phd. That statement has to be qualified by the fact that I am no maths expert and I do not have a Phd.

I suspect your internet reading is skewed/"spun" towards "geniuses". Where are the articles about the "real" mathematicians and what thay have done/do?

Don't rule out seeking counselling. Far easier to do this proactively than wait for a potential situation to get a lot worse, which may result in a "Shouldbe" maths Phd not becoming one at all.

"What does your iq need to be in order to become a mathematician"

Ask the right questions instead of the wrong ones.

From what I've learned from the internet

Aaaaargh, the fount of all knowledge...NOT!

I'd say it's right to aim high with ambitions, but it's wrong to aim high with expectations.

I have no idea if my math teacher may just have gotten unlucky with his students the past 20 years of his teachings

The fact that you even posted this speaks volumes. I'm glad you did. A teacher has twenty years solid of poor students or you are a potential maths Phd! I no know most of your ideas on this are in your head and nowhere else and you need to test your claims in reality. I believe you will be pleasantly surprised.

Your posts hint at you having low self esteem. Counselling.

This is according to my impression an accomplishment reserved for the quickest of minds

My impression is not "the quickest of minds", but "the hardest of work". Bet my impressions are better than yours.

Micro watches Spongebob 24/7 but he is amazing at math, what does that tell you

It tells me I didn't watch enough SpongeBob.

The stuff that i do is easy

I strongly suspect you are saying: "I can do this stuff, therefore it is easy", and "I can't do this other stuff, therefore I'm rubbish at maths". If so, you have set yourself up to fail.

In order to gain success in math, i have to be extraordinary - otherwise, what is the point of trying?

Wrong, and another "setup to fail".

i think its hardwired into me

Do a PF search on neuroplasticity. Things may not be as hardwired as you imagine. Knowing this helped me.

Lol - when i lay it out like that, i really sound like a person who needs professional help ^^

Only one way to find out.

and people do say intelligence is inherited?

Nature vs Nurture is not a black and white issue. At the end of the day you can do nothing about the Nature, but lots about the Nurture.

 

[kings7]

Not to put too fine a point on it, since you have received some great responses already, but there are many types of intelligence.

In any case... sometimes you can never tell what 'aspect' of intelligence it will take to come up with a great discovery. Most of it stems from creativity, perseverance, hard-work, and passion for the subject. My guess is you have all of that, even if you can't see your own creativity right now (which is a life-long process anyway).

Most of the greatest discoveries weren't thought up by even the most "superior" scientists of our species (Darwin, Einstein, Goedel, Curie, etc...) until mid or late into their lives when they have had copious exposure to their respective subjects. You need not worry about things like this now.

Do what you love because you love it. Your life will then be fulfilled and happy. Life is not about money or fame or success... it is about passion.

Here's the advice I would give you:

I'm 24 and have pursued two separate paths in life so far (music and maths). I've finally discovered that my true passion is in music and that is what I'll be going to grad school for. For years I was afraid of this because I thought it wouldn't "prove" enough that I had a high intellect. It's a hard phase to get over, especially if you're self-conscious like myself (and most likely you too), but you MUST get over it. It helped me to realize that it takes just as much dedication, intelligence, creativity, hard-work, and PASSION to do music as it does to do mathematics. This is true for most (but not all) subjects, as long as it is your true passion.

The only way you'll make a difference in this world is by pursuing your passion. You're already a step ahead of a lot of people just by knowing what your passion is.

The only other piece of advice would be to stay modest and humble. It sounds like you have a lot of talent, and as you progress, it becomes more and more difficult to be humble. But it is something that will certainly help you in many areas of life, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this topic.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

 

[epenguin]

Looks like your problem is not you and maths.
Your problem is you and concerning yourself with nothing else but maths.

For instance 145 is an object with indubitable meanings in maths, for instance it's 29X5 - though I won't have a depression if I got that wrong.
Whereas an IQ of 145 does not have that quality at all, it is a number that means no more than the methods used to obtain it, and above all justify and interpret it as meaning anything. Still controversial and considered ideologically driven by some. The facts you can solve those eqs. and help other students say much more about you in my opinion (and others' we have seen).

Numbers in real life are a convenience but a curse.

For instance a mathematical physicist may miss tricks if he just takes the numbers that experimentalists give him and doesn't understand how they were obtained. Read e.g. Feynman's 'The 7% solution'.

I am thinking of my experience in (grant) administration. Once a number had been put on something, it became thereby Scientific. Sacred. Unchallengeable. People really ended up believing a project that had got 78 points in evaluations was about 1% better than one that had got 77 points! Even if one was in Physics and the other in Biology! The recriminations I remember when an element of qualitative, policy or relevance judgement was allowed! - This 78-point Project Has Not Been Supported When This Less Good 77-point One Has! In the end justifying and explaining was given up and we just let numbers rule mechanically. But, starting as a convenient help to sieving, people finished believing these numbers (like you do). And it wasn't just contemptibles like politicians, lawyers, economists who were number worshippers either - I can remember theoretical physicists and statisticians who were the worst!

You see now the curse of numbers? They are used to relieve people of responsibility, of judging. (And so once we could say 'your project was not financed because it got one less point than the cutoff' we found ourselves in an unattackable fortress).

Well this has led to something wider than your question but I think this is of general interest to scientists and the assumptions in your question do lead to this.

But my message just to you is forget the foolish figures and also do something additional besides mathematics.

 

[Levis2]

I must say, you guys have really helped me to get a better view on all this. You have encouraged me to at least attempt a shot at my dream. I will do everything to get the education i need - if i even make it to my masters that is.

And you might also be right about the iq thing - i sat down in order to think rationally for a moment about the whole iq setup. Why is it, that i let one number, obtained from some stupid internet mensa test, control my life. Why is it that number to decide whether i am capable or not? Screw the iq - i just hope its a coincidence, that *almost* all mathematicians have a very high iq.

You have really helped me get over my iq obsession - it might seem like nothing to you guys, but the feeling of your future being decided by one single number is horrible. I will not let that number rule my life. I will put no more significance into iq, and i will forget my stupid test result.

The only doubt that i have left, is whether i will be able to complete a phd - my doubt roots in the fact that, if I've got it correctly, when you pursue a phd, you have to come up with something NEW. If the most brilliant of minds struggle with coming up with something new, then how am i suppose to do just that, when i am no match for them?

And about the Paul halmos being close to the "ordinary" mathematician - paul halos obtained his bachelor of mathematics when he was 19 - when i am 19, i will have just finished high school. If the ordinary mathematician is like paul halmos, then I'm screwed.

I seriously consider getting some professional help with the self-esteem complications - as stated before, it has come to a point where it inhibits other aspects of my life aswell.

 

[Levis2]

Also, i might have put one of my statements in a bad way - the issue is not the fact that i may become a bad mathematician. I can definitely live with that - as long as i CAN become a mathematician. That is my fear - spending 6 years in uni, and then lacking the intellect to complete my education.

And if i barely make my phd, then I'm afraid i won't be smart enough to get a job. I do have plans on starting a family in the future, and how is a vacant mathematician, not being capable of acquiring a job, suppose to provide for x number of kids?

I can live with not being the best mathematician - or at least i can now, after you guys have helped with my understanding. But I'm afraid of complete failure. Even though i'd still love what i do, then how am i suppose to provide for a family, if i can't get a job because everyone is smarter than me? I don't think i will ever be able to contribute to mathematics - so far all I've done is learn topics, which smarter people invented.