What is the Perpetual Motion Machine using Magnets?

In summary, magnets can do work indirectly, but the amount of work done is determined by the electric field of displaced of moving charges(electrons). Thermal excitation of the electrons from outside the system may continue to provide energy to the electrons and therefore the magnetic field so that this thermal excitation would act as the water in the water wheel.
  • #1
kmm
188
15
First, this is not a post about perpetual motion machines, although thinking about perpetual motion machines made me think of some issues. Something that is bothering me is the idea of a magnetic force not doing work. Well sort of. It’s completely clear to me that the magnetic field does no work since the magnetic force is always perpendicular to the displacement. [tex]\mathbf{F} = q( \mathbf{E} + \mathbf{v} \times \mathbf{B} )[/tex] and [tex]W = \int \mathbf{F} \cdot d \mathbf{x} [/tex]
What’s made me confused is I’ve come across some claimed perpetual motion machines. I understand that true perpetual motion machines cannot exist because something that does work without the input of energy violates conservation of energy. But I’m hung up on what could be called a “perpetual motion machine” such as a water wheel, but using magnets. A water wheel can do work, but obviously energy is being put into it by the flowing water. When it comes to magnets, a magnet can indirectly do work such as lifting a paper clip or another magnet. But in that case I assume that the work is actually done by the electric field of displaced of moving charges(electrons) towards the magnet. The magnetic force changes the directions of the electrons towards the magnet, then the electric field from the electrons pulls the lattice of the wire with it, so it’s the electric field doing work. This brings up a question I’m struggling to answer. Could some arrangement of magnets then be put together to do work(even if it isn’t done directly by the magnetic field)? If so, when would it stop producing work? I know the energy density associated with a magnetic field, [tex]W = \frac{1} {2 \mu_o} \int B^2 d \tau[/tex] which is attributed to the energy required to create the field, so I would think that the magnetic field would continue to diminish as work was being done. But could thermal excitation of the electrons from outside the system continue to provide energy to the electrons and therefore the magnetic field so that this thermal excitation would act as the water in the water wheel? What am I missing?
 
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  • #2
phy_infinite said:
First, this is not a post about perpetual motion machines, although thinking about perpetual motion machines made me think of some issues. Something that is bothering me is the idea of a magnetic force not doing work. Well sort of. It’s completely clear to me that the magnetic field does no work since the magnetic force is always perpendicular to the displacement. [tex]\mathbf{F} = q( \mathbf{E} + \mathbf{v} \times \mathbf{B} )[/tex] and [tex]W = \int \mathbf{F} \cdot d \mathbf{x} [/tex]
What’s made me confused is I’ve come across some claimed perpetual motion machines. I understand that true perpetual motion machines cannot exist because something that does work without the input of energy violates conservation of energy. But I’m hung up on what could be called a “perpetual motion machine” such as a water wheel, but using magnets. A water wheel can do work, but obviously energy is being put into it by the flowing water. When it comes to magnets, a magnet can indirectly do work such as lifting a paper clip or another magnet. But in that case I assume that the work is actually done by the electric field of displaced of moving charges(electrons) towards the magnet. The magnetic force changes the directions of the electrons towards the magnet, then the electric field from the electrons pulls the lattice of the wire with it, so it’s the electric field doing work. This brings up a question I’m struggling to answer. Could some arrangement of magnets then be put together to do work(even if it isn’t done directly by the magnetic field)? If so, when would it stop producing work? I know the energy density associated with a magnetic field, [tex]W = \frac{1} {2 \mu_o} \int B^2 d \tau[/tex] which is attributed to the energy required to create the field, so I would think that the magnetic field would continue to diminish as work was being done. But could thermal excitation of the electrons from outside the system continue to provide energy to the electrons and therefore the magnetic field so that this thermal excitation would act as the water in the water wheel? What am I missing?

Welcome to the PF.

We do not discuss PMMs here on the PF -- it is in the list of forbidden topics in the PF Rules that you agreed to when you joined here. From the Rules link at the top of the page (under Site Info):

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Pseudoscience, such as (but not limited to):

Perpetual motion and "free energy" discussions
http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Free_Energy_Debunking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
http://www.skepdic.com/freeenergy.html
http://www.skepdic.com/perpetual.html

This thread is closed.
 

1. What is work resulting from a magnet?

Work resulting from a magnet refers to the force exerted by a magnet on a magnetic material, causing it to move or change its orientation.

2. How does a magnet produce work?

A magnet produces work through its magnetic field, which creates a force on nearby magnetic materials. This force can cause the materials to move, rotate, or align with the magnet.

3. Can a magnet do work on non-magnetic materials?

No, a magnet can only do work on magnetic materials. Non-magnetic materials are not affected by a magnet's magnetic field and therefore cannot experience the force that produces work.

4. What are some examples of work resulting from a magnet?

Some examples of work resulting from a magnet include the movement of a compass needle, the rotation of an electric motor, and the levitation of a magnetic train.

5. Is there a limit to the amount of work a magnet can produce?

Yes, there is a limit to the amount of work a magnet can produce. This is determined by the strength of the magnet's magnetic field and the properties of the materials it is interacting with.

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