- #1
baywax
Gold Member
- 2,176
- 1
What's the safest way to dispose of and store nuclear waste? Is there any chance of rocketing it into the sun or is it too heavy?
Astronuc said:It costs about >$1000/kg (maybe closer to 10 times that) to lauch material from Earth to space, and that is just to orbit. That's more than the cost the energy extracted from the fuel. It's better to bury it on earth.
Handling high level waste requires heavy shielding, and so there is the mass of fuel + mass of shielding to consider.
It would never get to the sun since at some point it would melt/vaporize and then ride the solar wind back out into the solar system.
daveb said:Right now it's also more expensive to design and build (and possibly even operate) a reprocessing facility than it is to use uranium ore to make new fuel.
baywax said:Yes, I thought the whole process of embedding spent fuel into artificial rock seemed time consuming and expensive.
baywax said:Another by-product of nuclear power is heated water. When its discharged back into the river, stream or other source from which it is extracted, it upsets the balance of the original temperatures normally found in the source and thus creates an adverse condition for the flora and fauna of that source. Are there steps being taken to cool the discharged water to its original temp. and cease this infringement on the environment of the water ways?
Another question is: is there any contamination to the cooling system that may be discharged back into the water source?
Azael said:Its not very expensive, in sweden the construction and operation of the waste storage (not constructed yet) and all research is funded by a small fee on electricity produced by nuclear power and the fee is insignificant compared to other taxes ect.
The heating can be positiv aswell, seals are really thriving around the water discharge in sweden. If the discharge is straight into the sea the effect is quite small and very local. The temperature difference compared to the rest of the sea is located within a few square km.
You can get around it by using cooling towers or creating a artificial lake where the water can cool before going back into the river if river water is used.
But the waste heat can be used for district heating if the power plant is close to a major city.
baywax said:Thank you Azael,
Is there any radiation or other contamination to the waste water (other than heat)?
baywax said:What's the safest way to dispose of and store nuclear waste?
Azael said:Its very interesting to read about the natural reactors in Oklo that ran 2 billion years ago and the transport of different radionuclides from the reactor area. Even there with extreme conditions and no protection whatsoever all the actinides and the long lived fission products have stayed within a few meters from the reactor zones.
vanesch said:Bury it. That's now more than 25 years that one knows that this is a good solution, and one is still studying all kinds of exotic chemistry and other transport phenomena to find out whether really there's nothing overlooked.
You have to know that most of the activity is over in about 300-400 years (the fission products). One thinks that the human containment will hold it out for a few hundred years (stainless steel vessels and glass). Then it takes about 10 000 years to get rid of the minor actinides, which seem, however, not to get transported easily. Finally, if one were so stupid as to burry the plutonium too, you'd have to wait for about 100 000 years for it to fall back on natural radiation levels of uranium ore. But plutonium too, doesn't get transported easily.
Of course, you cannot bury it just anywhere, you have to study the geology very carefully, because the last thing you want is to put it in streaming ground water which would be too good a transportation vector. Clay layers seem to be very fit for the purpose, as they form a chemical barrier for actinide transport. Also salt depositions seem ok. Granite has an advantage (it is geologically extremely stable), but also a disadvantage (there can be cracks through which groundwater flows).
That said, there is no hurry, because nuclear waste is, on an industrial scale, relatively small volume, so storing it temporarily (even if it is for 50 years or more) is not a big problem - it even makes the underground storage simpler, as the produced heat and radiation will decay seriously over that time. Moreover, especially for "waste" from an open cycle, one might consider keeping it to reprocess later, as it still contains a lot of energetic stuff (95% of it, in fact).
It also gives more time to make one even more sure that the repository is going to be ok.
baywax said:What happened with Chernobyl? How did the radiation from that accident spread? I know there were fires. Was it in the smoke and particles? There were maps showing the spread of the contamination to neighbouring countries. Not sure what happened there, the whole town basically died around that site.
baywax said:Hi vanesch, Thank you for your info. Why can't we bury spent plutonium and what do we do with it these days? Is that classified info!?
baywax said:Hi vanesch, Thank you for your info. Why can't we bury spent plutonium and what do we do with it these days? Is that classified info!?
vanesch said:The good way to use plutonium is in fast reactors: it is a very good fuel. For the moment, in certain countries (France, UK,...) one is reprocessing the spend fuel and one extracts the plutonium. In others (Sweden, USA,...) one uses the "open cycle", that is, one considers the spend fuel as waste (which is very wasteful of ressources, but economically for the moment still viable).
Now, plutonium has several problems. It is by far the longest-living nuisible actinide, so in the waste, one counts on 100 000 years for it to take on "background" levels. This is not a problem by itself, but it would be better if this time were limited to 10 000 years of course, which is the case of spend fuel of which the plutonium has been removed but still contains the minor actinides (Np, Am, Cm), simply because the migration models have less uncertainties over 10 000 years than over 100 000 years. So one can put smaller error bars on the predictions of the safety of a repository over 10 000 years than over 100 000 years.
Moreover, plutonium is of course military a sensitive material, although this is over-emphasised: the plutonium from thermal power plants is of such an isotopic composition that it is difficult (although not impossible) to use to make a nuclear weapon.
All these are good reasons on the "waste" side to remove the plutonium. On the "fuel" side, as Azael said, plutonium is a "good fuel", but one has to put a caveat here. It is the perfect fuel for a fast reactor. But in a standard PWR, it is problematic. One can partially reuse it in so-called MOX fuel, but the difficulty is that in a thermal spectrum, the "good" plutonium Pu-239 can fission, but also absorb a neutron to form Pu-240, and so on, which absorps neutrons, which is highly active, and which ends up becoming Pu-241 which decays into Am-241, a nuisance.
So as long as we have a park of just PWR or BWR with thermal spectrum, we have only a limited possibility to re-use the plutonium. The plutonium from used MOX fuel is so good as unusable in a thermal (water) reactor, and will end up producing a lot of minor actinides. The gain in "waste" this way is limited, and the gain in fuel also (about 10-20% economy in fuel).
Genuine plutonium recycling only really makes sense if we have in the park of reactors, also a certain fraction of fast reactors. They can "eat" all the plutonium, and even burn a limited amount of minor actinides.
Otherwise, sooner or later, we will have unusable plutonium (bad isotopic composition) on our hands which we will have to end up considering as waste.
CaptainQuasar said:I just wanted to say to everyone, good questions baywax and great high-information-density answers.⚛
Rade said:There is also the possibility of physical transmutation of radioactive waste,--see these links for information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation
http://www.nea.fr/html/trw/index.html
http://www.neutron.kth.se/courses/transmutation/Chapter1.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0401/0401015.pdf
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ba/phys.htmlBarium sulphate (BaSO4) is insoluble and used for body imaging (barium meal).
baywax said:Is there some etiquette to disposing of nuclear waste? I mean, dog owners are faced with the disposal task everyday. I don't know if its done well. But its not on the streets or the grass (in most cases). Its in the landfill decomposing. But, someday, someone is going to build on that land fill.
Someday, there could be a host of other things going on like high water, earthquakes where you least expect them, future excavations. What if records are lost and wiped out, and people in 3490 AD are planning a tunnel through what they think is wilderness and they bore right through this land mine of plutonium? There are a thousand scenarios that come to mind where contamination and severe mutation take place because, today, we couldn't figure out a way to neutralize our nuclear waste... or perhaps do without nuclear power.
I mean, at one point we only had wind mills and sails for energy. If we bump into a wreck of one of these it doesn't kill or mutate the whole family. Is there a way to ensure, completely, that all nuclear waste can be disposed of in a benign way?
Rade said:There is also the possibility of physical transmutation of radioactive waste,--see these links for information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation
http://www.nea.fr/html/trw/index.html
http://www.neutron.kth.se/courses/transmutation/Chapter1.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0401/0401015.pdf
The answer to this question is, of course, no. But this is not a flaw in nuclear power, it is a flaw in the general public's understanding of the concept of risk management. That's the reason why some people are terrified of airplanes, while few give driving a second thought even though by all reasonable measures, a car is much more likely to kill you.baywax said:Is there a way to ensure, completely, that all nuclear waste can be disposed of in a benign way? [emphasis added]
baywax said:There are a thousand scenarios that come to mind where contamination and severe mutation take place because, today, we couldn't figure out a way to neutralize our nuclear waste... or perhaps do without nuclear power.
baywax said:edit: speaking of migration levels, after Chernobyl, there was a map showing the spread of the contaminants. It seemed to cover a large area, well into Eastern Germany and even over some of Ireland as I remember. Is this the spread of the irradiated gases Azael mentioned and not to do with the properties of plutonium or uranium?
vanesch said:Although it is *physically* possible to do this, and although there is a big research interest in this at the moment, I seriously question the industrial utility of it.
Indeed, the ultimate goal is to lower the risk of nuclear waste over the long term. Here, the risk is the expected number of death (number of exposed people x probability that they die of their exposure).
The risk for the repository is pretty small ! It is only in pretty unlikely scenarios that we obtain doses that might even become measurable above the background!
Now, these transmutations also involve a lot of manipulations of the waste, transport to the transmutation centre etc... There is always a minor risk in these manipulations that something goes wrong, and that, say, a worker get exposed or something. So it is far from obvious that these transmutations, everything included, REDUCE the overall risk! They might even increase it seriously (while it would still be very low of course).
In other words, we would put the lives of people at a slightly increased risk NOW, just to avoid very very unlikely risks to hypothetical people 1000 years from now.
vanesch said:Moreover, plutonium is of course military a sensitive material, although this is over-emphasised: the plutonium from thermal power plants is of such an isotopic composition that it is difficult (although not impossible) to use to make a nuclear weapon.
Azael said:IMO the main advantage of getting rid of long lived waste by transmutation is the PR side, then the nuclear industry can say that the waste problem has a solution and its not a problem anymore.
russ_watters said:The answer to this question is, of course, no. But this is not a flaw in nuclear power, it is a flaw in the general public's understanding of the concept of risk management. That's the reason why some people are terrified of airplanes, while few give driving a second thought even though by all reasonable measures, a car is much more likely to kill you.
Risk management is exactly what the name implies - management (not elimination) of risk. You cannot eliminate risks, you can only reduce them to reasonable levels and choose a course of action that has the most reasonable risk that is balanced against the reward.
Currently, many people are terrified of the pollution risks of nuclear power, but don't give the oil and coal power plant pollution risks much thought (at least insofar as they don't attempt to shut down an entire country's production of them). This is irrational considering the risks of nuclear power in a country like the US are extremely low and the benefit extremely large. At the same time, the [pollution] risks of coal and oil power are much larger.
Risk management means choosing the correct course of action. Nuclear power is the correct course of action.
Azael said:The number one protection is simply that the long lived waste products do not spread easily. The are almost insoluble in water and they tend to cling to every surface they get into contact with. Even if all the containers in a waste repository would fail it would still take a very long time for any long lived waste products to reach the surface and then it would be in extremely low concentrations. Its as close to fool proof as anything can come. Even if someone in the future drill straight down into the repository the exposure to radiation will still be very restricted. The swedish repository is even expected to handle a new ice age.
It was mostly iodine, cesium ect. I doubt much plutonium was spread far from the reactor, it just doesn't spread easily. Nuclear weapons test has spread much much more plutonium into the atmosphere.
IMO the main advantage of getting rid of long lived waste by transmutation is the PR side, then the nuclear industry can say that the waste problem has a solution and its not a problem anymore. The environmental organisations have already made the public sceptical towards geological storage. With carbon taxes that option will hopefully be economicaly competitive.
Seems like most fast reactor projects in the pipeline have the goal to be able to accept fuel with a mixture of Pu and minor actinides like that LWR's produce and that solves that problem without exotic concepts like ADS. But even the economics of ADS might become fairly reasonable. Atleast if it turns out as optimistic as the researchers working on it hopes.
http://www.neutron.kth.se/publications/library/DanielMSc.pdf
One argument that sometimes pop up in sweden is that after some time(tens of thousands of years) has passed most of the plutonium in the repository will be Pu-239 since the other isotopes have shorter half lives. So it could become a "plutonium mine" for future generations. I have a hard time taking that argument seriously since the current generation can not be expected to prevent the conscious descisions of future generations, but arguments like that has to be countered for nuclear to gain trust again. Just another reason to destroy it for good.
The best plan any country has so far is by far India. They plan on three stages.
Stage one, use heavy water moderated reactors running on natural uranium.
stage two, burn the plutonium and minor actinides produced in stage one in fast breeder reactors that breed u-233 from thorium instead of plutonium from u-239.
Stage three, use the u-233 in breeders running on pure thorium fuel cycles.
Stage two takes care of all long lived waste and stage three no longer produce any significant ammounts of long lived waste.
A thorium(u-233 breeder fuel cycle, especialy with molten salt reactors, looks very good next to a Pu breeder fuel cycle if looking at it from a global perspective with the HUGE ammounts of Pu that would be in circulation if nuclear power is to play a significant part of energy production.
Plutonium has such a relatively short half-life in terms of the age of the earth, that one does not find it readily in the environment. Uranium is naturally occurring in granite and certain areas, as it thorium. Radium is a daughter product in the decay chains of U and Th, and is present in trace quantities.baywax said:Does uranium or plutonium or radium pose a risk in its natural state, say if you camp on top of it over night?
baywax said:Thanks Azael. The migration factor was something I had no idea about. What springs to mind every time are these 3 mile Island and Chernobyl scenarios.
vanesch said:I think it is an extremely dangerous PR game, because there are many chances that the COMPLETE burnup of all actinides will prove industrially impossible or economically a disaster. Maybe not, but there are serious chances that it will be.
As such, then the argument is perfect: "they finally admitted that they didn't know what to do with the waste, they promised they could burn it, and now it is clear that they can't".
Azael said:But id say that if we can not get atleast 99% burnup of the minor actinides we should drop the uranium fuel cycle completely and follow the same plan as India, a future with several thousand reactors all producing waste at the same ammounts/kWh as todays is unacceptable in the long term.
vanesch said:Sure, the idea is to switch to fast breeders, no ? The current cycle is not only producing annoying waste, it is especially wasteful with ressources!