Helping Unprepared Students: The Ironies and Challenges

[Borek]

Looks like they were just missed, and once they were answered, there was no sense to delete the content.

But nothing has changed, that's for sure.

 

[phinds]

Looks like they were just missed, and once they were answered, there was no sense to delete the content.

But nothing has changed, that's for sure.

OK, just wanted to make sure. Thanks Borek.

 

[Mandelbroth]

May I complain about something I feel is unfair? Here's the scenario:

A poor helpless student comes here with a problem and says, "I have no idea where to begin" or something like that and the forum rules are "you must show your work to get help".

Well, does anyone see a contradiction there? How can they show their work if they don't have a clue how to start? And what, poor sympathetic me comes along and thinks, "well, I know just what they need" but no, I'll get popped if I "intervene" so like a good worker-bee I say nothing and the Riemann Hypothesis remains unproven.

Alas, I am beset by the ironies in my life.
Jack

Here's a bit on my philosophy on this topic.

I don't think I've ever asked for help on actual coursework or homework before, but when I'm doing problems on my own and it "looks" like a homework problem, I put it in the HW section. There have been times where I didn't see an obvious starting point. One that sticks out in my mind was during a kind of game I played with a friend on another forum to help us get more comfortable with proofs. The thread was here.

I didn't know where to start, so I asked. Clearly, I was lost. However, I could still make an attempt at doing something, even if it was fairly fruitless. If you don't know what to do, then you can try to apply your favorite lemma in your bag of tricks (lately, Gauss' Lemma has been particularly helpful to me, for example). If that doesn't work, I have a routine which has served me well over the past year:

1. Try for another 10-20 minutes
2. Google search the key words of the problem individually to see if anything pops up that might spark an idea
3. Check MathOverflow. Not there? Check it again, because you will inevitably find your answer there 5 minutes after you figure out what to do. If you still can't find it, try Math StackExchange.
4. Google search the full text of the problem
5. Try for another 10-20 minutes, and/or recheck MathOverflow (it's in there, somewhere)
6. Ask PF.

In all honesty, I look up to most of the frequent members of this forum. If I'm asking a question here, I feel like I'm obligated to put a little bit of effort into it, at least for the sake of respect.

What's more, in a somewhat related discussion, I really appreciated micro's four word answer in that thread. The way I see it, it's my problem and not yours. I want to solve it, rather than just read your post and say, "Hmm. That was an interesting proof. I got absolutely nothing out of that, other than the result of the theorem." I want the satisfaction of being able to say, "I proved it," complete with a little snoopy dance in victory. I've been attempting to emulate that style of response lately.

"My road through math is littered with wrong ones."

Amen to that.

Very often, just LISTING the variables explicitly, rather than let them float about in the brain is just the nudge one needs to organize the thoughts..

My physics teacher taught me this last year. As crazy as it sounds, this is an almost surefire way of getting "unstuck."

I've heard that brute force usually works.

Said no one. Ever.

I like the "Feynman Problem Solving Method" myself:

1. Write down the problem.
2. Think really hard.
3. Write down the right answer.

WHOA! I like this method! Why was I unaware of this? :tongue:

 

[leroyjenkens]

Actually, in some cases, "I have no idea" happens. It happens to me sometimes. I can't think of an example, but I've been in situations where I have no idea where to begin on a problem, and it's not due to laziness, it's just probably me drawing a blank. Sometimes a push in the right direction will help and wouldn't be considered holding their hand. But of course, you can't know when someone IS just being lazy, so I see the dilemma.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Actually, in some cases, "I have no idea" happens. It happens to me sometimes. I can't think of an example, but I've been in situations where I have no idea where to begin on a problem, and it's not due to laziness, it's just probably me drawing a blank. Sometimes a push in the right direction will help and wouldn't be considered holding their hand. But of course, you can't know when someone IS just being lazy, so I see the dilemma.

Easy. If they can't fill out the part of the template that says "Relevant equations" then they are being lazy.

-Dave K

 

[Office_Shredder]

The response to "I don't know what to do" should be look in the section that contains your exercise, and try to apply your favorite theorem from that section. If you haven't done that then the problem isn't that you don't know what to do, it's that you don't want to do it.

 

[Yanick]

Even if you are doing a problem which perhaps makes you to extend the ideas of the chapter in a way that you can't wrap your brain around and get stuck, you can still write a few sentences about your thought process. For example you might say something like, "The chapter covers [topic] and we did [topic] in class last week. This problem probably has something to do with [topic] but I don't see the connection because [reasons]. I'm just stuck and don't know how I can try and apply [topic] to this problem." I know if I were to read something similar to that in a post which didn't show any actual work, I would try and help the person.

I have to agree that there is always something you can write to show that you are at least thinking about the material and trying to learn something. I mean if you are learning how to add vectors and get to a problem which just stumps you completely, you can still write a few sentences which show that you know that you are studying vector manipulation and that you know how to add <1,0> and <1,5> but that this problem is trickier because they threw a curve ball at you.

 

[AlephZero]

Actually, in some cases, "I have no idea" happens. It happens to me sometimes. I can't think of an example, but I've been in situations where I have no idea where to begin on a problem, and it's not due to laziness, it's just probably me drawing a blank.

The problem there is not so much "I don't know how to solve this particular problem" but "I don't know some strategies for solving problems in general".

The HW help forums aren't really aimed at explicitly teaching people general problem solving strategies, except by "immersion" (in the language-learning sense) of being led through it by question and answer.

Maybe schools don't teach problem solving strategies explicitly either, though people like Edward de Bono have put a lot of effort into persuading people that's what they should be doing - and of course he can sell you the best way to do it

 

[brmath]

You know, I think we can start by cutting people some slack. If they are really being lazy, we'll find out fast enough. Hopelessly confused and frustrated is also possible.

I like to give them an answer that would start them off in the right direction. Or ask if they understand the definition of whatever the basic thing is.

Some respond well and begin making progress. Others clearly are hoping to get off with little work, or maybe to get me to do it for them.

I must add, some of the problems people are given are ridiculous and indicate mostly that their professor has no idea how to teach and/or doesn't him/herself understand the material. Wish I could message those people ...

Also, some of the students have no business in whatever the course is, are clearly unprepared, and I wish I knew what to tell them.

 

[ZapperZ]

You know, I think we can start by cutting people some slack. If they are really being lazy, we'll find out fast enough. Hopelessly confused and frustrated is also possible.

I like to give them an answer that would start them off in the right direction. Or ask if they understand the definition of whatever the basic thing is.

Some respond well and begin making progress. Others clearly are hoping to get off with little work, or maybe to get me to do it for them.

I must add, some of the problems people are given are ridiculous and indicate mostly that their professor has no idea how to teach and/or doesn't him/herself understand the material. Wish I could message those people ...

Also, some of the students have no business in whatever the course is, are clearly unprepared, and I wish I knew what to tell them.

I'm all for giving people some slack... IF they have showed at least some attempt at trying to do this themselves, or at the very least, reveal to use what they already know. I have a problem with people who's only words that they type in after giving us the problem are : "I don't know what do to" or "I don't know how to start"! Did they slept through the class to not even know the basic principle being presented? We're not taking about knowing the equation to use here!

I've elaborated on this even more:

https://www.physicsforums.com/blog.php?b=4714

Zz.

 

[brmath]

Hi Zz,

Your blog was very interesting, and points out something I wasn't focusing on, which is that most homework questions are about physics. Since I don't know much physics, I am helping with math homework. So it isn't about whether the student knows the physics, or some physics or any physics. While knowing something about the relevant math is a somewhat parallel problem, it really isn't quite the same.

When all I get is "I don't know where to start", I often ask them to define the terms -- "what is a compact set"? If you don't understand the question, there is no way you are going to get to an answer. Sometimes I'll ask an implication question -- "what kind of surface does this function describe?". Sometimes I'll do the first computation -- " if $f_x$ is 2x + y can you take the next step?" Sometimes I clarify what the question actually is -- that often helps a lot.

I don't think any of this is giving away the store as doing the physics for them might.

If the student is trying to get me to do the problem, that will quickly be evident. If he/she was simply lost or didn't know what to focus on, the first step may set him/her on a good path.

I am also okay with a student who started and took a wrong turn.

What is giving me the most trouble are the students who just plain do not belong in whatever class it is. I remember one who was working on a 2-dim problem - probed for a starting point, asking several increasingly simple questions; but gave up when he/she didn't know anything about the relationship of a tangent line to a circle and the radius to that point.

I recently worked with another who started in the wrong direction, didn't understand why not, and eventually turned out not to understand anything -- was guessing at answers without a scrap of logical thought or insight.

What should I do for students who clearly are misplaced? The best advice would be to drop the class, but I can hardly suggest that.

 

[SteamKing]

What is giving me the most trouble are the students who just plain do not belong in whatever class it is. I remember one who was working on a 2-dim problem - probed for a starting point, asking several increasingly simple questions; but gave up when he/she didn't know anything about the relationship of a tangent line to a circle and the radius to that point.

I recently worked with another who started in the wrong direction, didn't understand why not, and eventually turned out not to understand anything -- was guessing at answers without a scrap of logical thought or insight.

What should I do for students who clearly are misplaced? The best advice would be to drop the class, but I can hardly suggest that.

These are the toughest cases to deal with. Sometimes, I wonder if these students didn't wander into the wrong class by mistake and didn't realize it.

 

[brmath]

These are the toughest cases to deal with. Sometimes, I wonder if these students didn't wander into the wrong class by mistake and didn't realize it.

From my own teaching experience I am aware that instructors often pass students who should fail, due to having learned nothing at all. So, having "passed" calc1 and calc2 they go on to calc3 when their proper placement is maybe college algebra (or high school algebra?). One might ask, "where is their guidance counselor", but that person is probably also eager not to offend.

You can pass calc3 the same way -- get someone else to do your homework, cheat on the tests, etc. I was always a barrier to this approach, which can make you unpopular; but I was there to teach not to socialize. Strangely, I remained popular.

The sad thing is that once the student has absorbed the pain of his/her well deserved failing grade, he/she may go on to major in something more suitable. So I think that failing grades should be awarded when appropriate. Why deprive the world of a good history teacher to produce an incompetent mathematician or physicist?

Re cheating, they are getting better and better at it due to fine cellphone technology. In my last class all but one person gave the same wrong answer to one problem. So I was able to mark all the cheaters down en masse, instead of having to ferret them out one at a time. (Not that I am in the ferreting business -- I think life will deal with them).

But for those who are sincere and trying to learn, we are providing a good service, and I find it a great pleasure.

 

[strangerep]

Re cheating, they are getting better and better at it due to fine cellphone technology.

How? Do you mean in a take-home assignment, or in a closed-book exam?

I have a good and kind friend I grew up with, who is now Head of the Economics Dept at a major university. He told me a story about a girl student who always achieved good results for assignments, etc, etc, and seemed thoroughly interested in his course. But come the (closed-book) exam, she crashed and burned horribly and my friend was quite upset. I didn't know how to tell him that he had simply been played all along by a cheating young girl who knew how to charm naive older men...

Why deprive the world of a good history teacher to produce an incompetent mathematician or physicist?

Indeed, and why deprive the world of a skillful escort to produce an incompetent economist?

 

[brmath]

How? Do you mean in a take-home assignment, or in a closed-book exam?

I have a good and kind friend I grew up with, who is now Head of the Economics Dept at a major university. He told me a story about a girl student who always achieved good results for assignments, etc, etc, and seemed thoroughly interested in his course. But come the (closed-book) exam, she crashed and burned horribly and my friend was quite upset. I didn't know how to tell him that he had simply been played all along by a cheating young girl who knew how to charm naive older men...

Yeah, a closed book exam. It was a very peculiar misunderstanding of the material, so they must have collaborated. It is not impossible they all worked it out together the night before, but seems unlikely they were organized enough to get that many kids together.

The one person who wasn't part of the ring got the problem right.

I had a friend who was approached by a young lady who was clearly failing his class. She told him that she would do "anything" for an A. He suggested she go home and study. No, she said, she meant she would do anything for an A. His second suggestion to study was not kindly recevied and she duly flunked his course.

After the semester was over he checked on her transcript. She had 4 F's and a A.

Just in case you don't know this, men of all ages are susceptible to charming young ladies. Even some who have already been misled several times and ought to have learned some skepticism.

This is balanced by all the women charmed by men who are up to no good.

And so, the world.

 

[Medgirl314]

I feel that "I have no idea where to start" is unacceptable, but "I HAD no idea how to start" is, if followed by a reasonable attempt to solve the problem. What I feel is unreasonable, though, is that some members(not mentors) who have already been to college "help" someone with a basic problem, but insult their knowledge or intelligence while doing so. It's okay to say "I think you missed a step." or, "Here's a link to a similar problem, do you see where you went wrong?" But I don't think it's helpful to say things such as "This isn't even algebra, this is basic arithmetic." or "Maybe you should review basic algebra." or "You'll never succeed in physics if you don't have such basic concepts down." However, this is only some members, some others are extremely helpful.

 

[brmath]

The people who are most insulting are usually the ones who know the least and/or are the least sure of themselves. There will always be people like that. We cannot escape them.

In a better world everyone would be considerate and respectful. But that is not our world.

 

[Medgirl314]

That's true. Those were my thoughts too,brmath. I wish we had more Homework Helpers with your attitude!

My thought it that just POSTING a question means admitting you don't know everything, or at least that you don;t know the concept very well, so there isn't a need for people to point that out. Especially when the OP is working hard at the problem and not just seeking answers.

 

[Mark44]

I feel that "I have no idea where to start" is unacceptable, but "I HAD no idea how to start" is, if followed by a reasonable attempt to solve the problem. What I feel is unreasonable, though, is that some members(not mentors) who have already been to college "help" someone with a basic problem, but insult their knowledge or intelligence while doing so. It's okay to say "I think you missed a step." or, "Here's a link to a similar problem, do you see where you went wrong?" But I don't think it's helpful to say things such as "This isn't even algebra, this is basic arithmetic." or "Maybe you should review basic algebra." or "You'll never succeed in physics if you don't have such basic concepts down." However, this is only some members, some others are extremely helpful.

I disagree with your opinion on what's not helpful. There are way too many students who don't get it that math courses are cumulative, and that teachers expect that a student in course N + 1 should be reasonably competent in the material from course N. A student who can't do arithmetic is going to find it impossible to carry out complicated calculations in algebra or trig or more advanced subjects. I don't find anything wrong with telling such a student to review basic algebra or whatever he or she is having problems with.

 

[Medgirl314]

Ah, I think I may have made a statement that varied slightly from what I actually meant. I agree with your statement, actually. My point was that saying "Here, review this concept" or "It may be a good idea to review basic algebra" can be nice and helpful. But saying something like those comments, but either packaged with an insult or stated rudely, is not helpful.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Just ignore those kinds of comments Medgirl: they clearly serve no helpful purpose and are just flung out at an innocent student asking for help with the sole purpose of ego inflation.

Here's an example of such a comment (see post #2): https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=731174

Not only is that hurtful to the OP but also completely useless in every possible way.

 

[Medgirl314]

My thoughts exactly.

Berkeman handled it quite well though.

It's nice viewing many different categories on PF, you get to see who the regulars are, which ones are helpful AND nice, and which ones help for the purpose of inflating their ego. Thanks for being one of the helpful AND nice ones! I found that evo,PhantomJay, and Mark44 are the same way.

 

[brmath]

That's true. Those were my thoughts too,brmath. I wish we had more Homework Helpers with your attitude!

My thought it that just POSTING a question means admitting you don't know everything, or at least that you don;t know the concept very well, so there isn't a need for people to point that out. Especially when the OP is working hard at the problem and not just seeking answers.

Well, my attitude is shaped by my knowledge that there are some areas in which I am totally deficient, so who am I to get arrogant. Maybe it is worth suggesting in the facs or something that all of us are not good at something, so we should be patient with those who are having trouble with math.

I think an OP who is visibly trying is usually treated pretty well. Some of them don't seem to be visibly trying, but that doesn't necessarily imply they are goofing off. Sometimes they don't understand the rules. Sometimes they are just panic stricken because they don't know where to start.

If we want them to at least start, maybe we should ask a leading question -- like, can you define compact set? (or whatever terminology may be involved). Then at least they are started.

I did give up on one student who couldn't tell me whether there was any relationship between the tangent to a circle and its radius to that point. And further he had made it clear he wanted me to do the problem. But what was he doing in multivariate calculus if he didn't know any high school geometry?

 

[Medgirl314]

I agree. I think those OPs usually are treated pretty well, too, unless they have a couple slightly impatient regulars trying to help them. I like your idea of asking leading questions. That seems much better than deleting the thread, to me. :) But I'm sure it gets annoying for everyone else when some students post homework questions without showing their work. I do think that maybe we should have a different section for non-homework problems,because I and a few others I have seen on this forum are doing EXTRA work and they already KNOW the answer, but they need an in-depth explanation to truly understand how to get there. Does that make sense?

 

[Borek]

I do think that maybe we should have a different section for non-homework problems,because I and a few others I have seen on this forum are doing EXTRA work and they already KNOW the answer, but they need an in-depth explanation to truly understand how to get there. Does that make sense?

Basically that's what the sections outside of Science Education are for. No problem with discussing there problems that require in-depth explanation.

Yes, sometimes classifying a problem as a profound one and worth further discussion or as a trivial homework depends on the perspective and is a matter of personal opinion. But as long as everyone involved is aware of that it shouldn't generate any issues.

 

[dlgoff]

I do think that maybe we should have a different section for non-homework problems,because I and a few others I have seen on this forum are doing EXTRA work and they already KNOW the answer, but they need an in-depth explanation to truly understand how to get there. Does that make sense?

That's why there are the other forums. If it's not homework, the question can be asked as such.

Edit: You're too fast Borek

 

[Medgirl314]

Oh, okay! I was somewhat confused because I read on other threads that any questions resembling homework MUST be asked in the homework forum, even if they're not assigned. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Borek]

Oh, okay! I was somewhat confused because I read on other threads that any questions resembling homework MUST be asked in the homework forum, even if they're not assigned. Thanks for clearing that up!

As explained earlier - sometimes what counts as a HW or HWlike question is a matter of a personal opinion. But if you will post in the technical forum, following the rules of the HW forum (mainly explaining precisely what it is about and showing your effort) and you will add a comment that you are not interested just in the solution, but in some details of the method/theorems used/blahblah, you would have to be extremely unlucky and meet a Mentor with a headache/toothache/wifeache/whatever to get smashed for your post.

 

[Medgirl314]

You're funny. Okay, thanks!

 

[Lisa!]

As explained earlier - sometimes what counts as a HW or HWlike question is a matter of a personal opinion. But if you will post in the technical forum, following the rules of the HW forum (mainly explaining precisely what it is about and showing your effort) and you will add a comment that you are not interested just in the solution, but in some details of the method/theorems used/blahblah, you would have to be extremely unlucky and meet a Mentor with a headache/toothache/wifeache/whatever to get smashed for your post.

wifeache:rofl:

PS: It would be very funny if i'd get smashed for this post:uhh:

 

[SteamKing]

... you would have to be extremely unlucky and meet a Mentor with a headache/toothache/wifeache/whatever to get smashed for your post.

Happy wife, happy life, Borek. Do the Poles have a similar saying?

 

[Borek]

Happy wife, happy life, Borek. Do the Poles have a similar saying?

We don't need a saying, we just know it.

 

[dlgoff]

We don't need a saying, we just know it.

I think I know why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmSzAeO76es

 

[Alpharup]

I have read a few posts out here and would like to give my opinion. If you teach someone about RLC circuits, he or she must at least know the notations ( "at least" here means the least possible knowledge without understanding) in calculus.

He or she should know that dy/dx is the rate of change of y with respect to variable x. The person should also know that if dy/dx=k, then he should be able to express y in terms of k. If a person says that it is not known to him, it is really frustrating given the fact that second order differential equation is solved.

 

[brmath]

I have read a few posts out here and would like to give my opinion. If you teach someone about RLC circuits, he or she must at least know the notations ( "at least" here means the least possible knowledge without understanding) in calculus.

He or she should know that dy/dx is the rate of change of y with respect to variable x. The person should also know that if dy/dx=k, then he should be able to express y in terms of k. If a person says that it is not known to him, it is really frustrating given the fact that second order differential equation is solved.

Yes, students who are totally unprepared for the classes they are in are a problem. It should be the school's problem, but it winds up in our laps when the student asks for help. It is hard to know what to tell them. "Drop this class and study h.s. algebra" does not seem appropriate, although it might be the most accurate.