Anyone considering a career as a patent attorney?

[Gabrielle S]

Interested in hirin student's to do patent research where would I find such student's

Are you interested in hiring law students only? I am graduating with degrees in neuroscience and political science and will be pursuing my masters in biotechnology from Johns Hopkins. As someone interested in pursuing a career in patent law, I would be happy to help with your research.

 

[berned_you]

I am currently a senior for my bachelors in EE and I am considering patent law. This field is so interesting but the possibility of debt is very daunting. The law school I would most likely intend would incur around 60-80,000 in debt. Would you say that a large amount of debt such as this is a burden and hard to pay off? That is a very scary thought.

Thanks for your time

It's all relative. There is no right answer. It can be paid off but it is expensive. If you enjoy your career and plan to work hard so that you're earning a nice salary and your income potential is higher than it would be otherwise, then it may be "worth it."

 

[berned_you]

How to figure out if a certain law school has a solid patent program? Thanks.

Try and talk to recent grads, inquire whit/interview admissions personnel. US News Rankings provide some insight but they aren't gospel.

 

[berned_you]

I know this thread was originally from a long time ago but if you are still replying...

I have always been interested in patent law and going to law school but wanted to make some money after getting my bachelors degree in chemical engineering. I have been working for a pharmaceutical/vaccine company for the past three years out of school.

Is it necessary to get a PhD in ChE like it is for chemistry to have a better chance at getting a good job? What is the career outlook for a ChE gone IP Attorney?

Just curious as it makes me nervous to pursue a completely different career path when I have a good (but not perfect for me) job currently.

I'd try and identify local ChE patent attorneys, view their bios and request a phone interview to ask. I'm mechanial/biomed so I'm not the best resource.

 

[berned_you]

So, I am majoring in Philosophy and minoring in Computer Science. Would minoring in computer science be enough to take the patent exam or would I have to get experience with the minor?

See prior posts and cited materials regarding USPTO Patent Bar requirements.

 

[berned_you]

Hello! Great discussion page.

My undergrad was in Biotechnology Engineering, and very recently I completed my Master's in Pharmaceutical Regulatory Affairs. The MS isn't what I expected it to be. My aptitude bolsters creative thinking and problem thinking and hence, Regulatory career isn't the right choice for me. It would help me a lot if you could answer my queries.

1. I was wondering if I have any chances of becoming a Patent agent?
2. Are there any schools for such program? If yes, how expensive is it?
3. What are my other career options?

Thank you.
Yay! 199th post.

1. Of course there's a chance, hard to say what percentage. Depends on so many factors discussed in this thread.
2. Yes, but don't bother. You can study for the patent bar yourself or take a short course. Notre Dame has a patent agent program, total waste of money IMO.
3. Consider working at the USPTO as an examiner for awhile. They'll train you to become an agent and PAY you to be trained. It'll also let you gain very valuable experience and determine what kind of career you want (patent agent, attorney, examiner, in house patent Alison, etc.)

 

[berned_you]

I've recently been considering becoming a patent agent in Canada. It sounds like a really interesting, rewarding career that I could actually enjoy doing. I know here in Canada you only really need a trainee position for 24 months and some kind of engineering or science degree to get that position in the first place before you can sit the (incredibly difficult) exams. I am going to be graduating with a major in physics and minor in mathematics a year from now and I am trying to decide what the best path to take would be. I could go to law school and become an actual patent attorney, or I could attempt to get a trainee position with just my bachelors, or do a masters in some kind of engineering, or I could go on to do a masters in Medical Physics (the other career I've been considering) and then potentially move to patent law from there. Which path would be the most useful towards being a patent agent?

Sorry, can't speak for Canada. Try setting up a phone interview/coffee with a local Canadian patent agent.

 

[berned_you]

Hello I just have a general question...

I'm sort of a late bloomer when it comes to actually being interested in IP Law. After doing a lot of research I found that this is the career path I would like to go down. I've always wanted to be a lawyer. I graduated in 2013 with my B.A. in African American Studies. After reading the patent requirements it seemed like I would have to get a Masters Degree in Chemistry or Physics. I would much rather take Engineering since I was really interested in the subject and took it when I was in high school. However, after reading the Patent requirements it doesn't seem like I can get my Masters in the field of Engineering and still qualify for the patent bar since my undergraduate degree is in another subject and I would need a certain amount of science courses. So my question is: Since I have my B.A. in African American Studies can I still qualify to take the patent bar if I get my Masters in Chemistry or Physics?

That should be fine. Prior posts in this thread link to the specific USPTO requirements.

 

[berned_you]

Does anyone still pursue this career arc anymore? The market for both attorneys and law schools is crashing at an almost comical rate (oversaturation, too many schools, etc.). Is law school really worth 6-figure debt these days?

There's real risk. Whether it's worth it is a personal decision. It's not a guaranteed six figure salary and multiple job offers.

 

[berned_you]

I also have another question. So many articles claim that "patent law is one area where employment prospects are good and are expected to remain so," and some other people claim that getting a JD is more like a career "VD" (meaning disease). I know online everyone is strongly opinionated one way or another, but how do you truly know if going to law school will be worth it? Is it really a gamble, since you cannot faithfully predict what the job market will be like in 3 years?

Another claim is that once you get the JD, you pretty much lose any chance of securing a job back in the technical field (like EE for instance). These claims are very hard to stomach, if they were true. I know law school for anyone is a risk, but how can you determine if it is worth it?

I've read through much of the forum posts, but sorry if I missed something that talked about this.

It's not a gamble, you are in control of your own success via work ethic. That said, school is very expensive and there aren't an abundance of job offers for every IP grad. It's not a sure thing but I believe with hard work, everyone who is willing to put in the work can be successful, even in this climate.

 

[berned_you]

Hi
Really enjoy this post

I have a few questions I am currently pursuing a degree in EE and want to attend Law school to become a Patent attorney.

1. What is the difference between IP law and Patent law?

2. You mentioned that it was hard to get a job in the field back in a post from 2012, have you noticed an increase in job openings with the increase in technology. If technology increases as what seems to be an exponential rate, does you see this as Patent Law being a field that is going to be growing and more demanding?

3. Obviously a MS is better than a BS do you find it necessary for an EE to have a MS in order to have a good starting job? Also i will have 8 months of experience, when I graduate, from co-ops. While in Law school do you see it to be better to try to get more experience in my summers off while in law school by doing more co-ops or internships, or do you think it is better to try to take courses in the summer to work towards a MS in EE an CE. If it is a 3 year program, i will have 3 summer off where i can take some classes towards a MS or gain potentially 9 months experience. A MS on top of my JD would be very expensive, do you see a return in the investment or if my law school is good enough do you think that will set me ahead enough.

4. What are some good schools for someone who is projected to get a 3.6 GPA in an EE degree and a 165 on the LSAT, I looked at some schools online and saw there average acceptance criteria, I guess a better question would be based off of your knowledge of well established schools are there any that come to mind that are very well respected in the Patent law field that could be within reach for me?

1. IP includes copyright, trade secret and trademark law
2. Things are better now than 2012 but it's not "great"
3. Not necessary but no magic formula to guarantee a job. Do what works best for you.
4. Determine where you want to work and find a good school near there. I'm guessing 90% of law firm hires are from local schools (they know what kind of students those schools spit out and are cheap/easy to interview).

 

[Gypsie666]

Are you interested in hiring law students only? I am graduating with degrees in neuroscience and political science and will be pursuing my masters in biotechnology from Johns Hopkins. As someone interested in pursuing a career in patent law, I would be happy to help with your research.

Please call 256 283 7390

 

[Patent Man]

How do you teach yourself to write patents? Good education, advanced degrees, a decade of waiting at other attorney jobs haven't let me us my PTO registration. I can not drive 5 hours to and from my nearest PTO office every day to work as an examiner. I would think to start at the simplest like Nolo and work my way up through more advanced materials like CLE, Kayton, and practice journals to gain proficiency. My field is biotechnology-chemistry. Any thoughts? TIA.

 

[berned_you]

How do you teach yourself to write patents? Good education, advanced degrees, a decade of waiting at other attorney jobs haven't let me us my PTO registration. I can not drive 5 hours to and from my nearest PTO office every day to work as an examiner. I would think to start at the simplest like Nolo and work my way up through more advanced materials like CLE, Kayton, and practice journals to gain proficiency. My field is biotechnology-chemistry. Any thoughts? TIA.

I personally did not teach myself. I took law school courses and also gained experience though an externship in school. Once out of school, I was hired for a position in which I was provided a mentor who oversaw my work and guided me through the learning process (the typical junior associate/partner relationship).

 

[deckrichmond]

I am curious about the correlation between the pay and the hours worked. My current stereotypical view of lawyers is one who works 60 hours a week, makes 300k a year and has no time to do other things like coach his kid's soccer team. However, you have said that you are a rare case in that you work 35 hrs/week, but how does that affect your pay? I guess my curiosity is whether or not I could, with a ChemE undergrad and a diploma from a sweet law school, make bank (150k to 200k) while working 40-45 hour weeks?

 

[berned_you]

I am curious about the correlation between the pay and the hours worked. My current stereotypical view of lawyers is one who works 60 hours a week, makes 300k a year and has no time to do other things like coach his kid's soccer team. However, you have said that you are a rare case in that you work 35 hrs/week, but how does that affect your pay? I guess my curiosity is whether or not I could, with a ChemE undergrad and a diploma from a sweet law school, make bank (150k to 200k) while working 40-45 hour weeks?

Keep in mind that this post originated a long time ago. I'm now in a different employment situation so I have a bit more perspective and input. Currently I work at a firm that allows me to work as much or as little as I want (granted I don't think I could work 80 hours a week because there probably isn't enough to do). My pay is therefore variable and is directly tied to the number of hours that are billed to a client. It's a nice flexible arrangement for someone with a family but the unpredictability is not so good as my next paycheck is always a mystery. Back to your question, I don't think you could expect to make $150-200K working 40-45 hours a week, especially if you're a junior attorney. "Working" 40-45 hours a week is "billing" about 1200/hours a year (keep in mind attorneys don't get paid sick time, client development, continuing education, vacation, holidays or bathroom breaks as it all comes down to hours billed per year). To do rough math, let's say your starting billing rate is $175/hr and you get 1/3, that means your take home would be around $69K if you worked a 40-45 hour week. Some firms will give you a higher cut, many will require you bill at least 1500 hours. Your billing rate can be much higher but most clients will give you a budget and if you can't meet the budget, you're working for free so it all evens out in the long run. Billing rates are pretty meaningless for IP work these days IMO because most work is done on a pre-negotiated fee basis. It's not that you can't make great money practicing patent law, but it's not as "kick your feet up on the desk" as many believe. It's also a lot easier to make good money 5+ years in the business because you know what you're doing and are more efficient. It's also easier to make money as well when you're working for your own clients and only have to get their feedback vs. also the feedback of a senior partner (i.e. more work available for you bill/collect).

 

[lightrey]

Thank you so much for continuing to respond. I would just like to tell you a little about myself and the plan I've been conjuring up.

I received my BS in physics with a concentration in nuclear engineering in 2013. While in undergrad, I did a lot of research in the field of nuclear forensics and even published a paper. When I graduated, no one was hiring in that field and oil was at $100+/barrel so I switched gears and started working as a geophysicist for a top-tier company. That was two years ago, and I cannot express to you how much I HATE this job. I'd much rather be getting a root canal or suffer a minor car accident than go to work. It's sucking the life out of me, and at age 24 I know I need to make a change sooner rather than later.

So here's my plan - I study for a few months and pass the patent bar, then land a patent agent job paying at least $70k (the minimum I can accept thanks to my crippling student loan payments). I work at the firm for 1-3 years, then have them pay my way through law school. I know working full time and going to school on nights/weekends is going to be hell, but I'm a hard worker and know how to grind.

My questions are this:
1) How desirable is someone with my background? I'm not sure if having a wide breadth (physics, nuclear engineering, nuclear forensics, and geophysics) is seen as a good thing, or if companies would rather have someone with just one focus.

2) Is it common for firms to pay a patent agents way through law school? I know this would most likely come with contractual stipulations about staying X years with the company, but that's fine.

I really appreciate any advice/insight you may be able to offer!

 

[berned_you]

My questions are this:
1) How desirable is someone with my background? I'm not sure if having a wide breadth (physics, nuclear engineering, nuclear forensics, and geophysics) is seen as a good thing, or if companies would rather have someone with just one focus.
Not common but not undesirable. Check job postings to get an idea of what employers are looking for. That said, you may be limited to certain parts of the country that will have a market/clients needing someone with your background.

2) Is it common for firms to pay a patent agents way through law school? I know this would most likely come with contractual stipulations about staying X years with the company, but that's fine.
Exceptionally rare scenario. Never heard of a firm doing this.

Ever considered working at the patent office as an examiner? They'd pay to train you to obtain your patent bar registration and you'd get out of your crappy job, no experience necessary. You'd gain industry experience and identify companies to search for patent agent jobs.

 

[lightrey]

1) I've checked a few job postings but it seems like most employers are looking for electrical, chemical, or mechanical engineers. I haven't let that completely deter me, but it has made me a little less optimistic. The patent bar prep course I'm looking at has a two month plan, so there's still time for something better to open up.

2) Shoot. I was really hoping that would be an option so I wouldn't have to take on any more student loans. I graduated almost $80k in the hole, so I'm really hesitant to go into further debt. My outlook may change in a few years, though.

3) No, that thought had never crossed my mind. The fact that they train you to pass the patent bar is very appealing, considering how expensive prep courses are. Would that type of experience be seen as more desirable than going straight to being a patent agent? Unfortunately, they also don't have any postings for someone with my background right now.

 

[berned_you]

1) I've checked a few job postings but it seems like most employers are looking for electrical, chemical, or mechanical engineers. I haven't let that completely deter me, but it has made me a little less optimistic. The patent bar prep course I'm looking at has a two month plan, so there's still time for something better to open up.

2) Shoot. I was really hoping that would be an option so I wouldn't have to take on any more student loans. I graduated almost $80k in the hole, so I'm really hesitant to go into further debt. My outlook may change in a few years, though.

3) No, that thought had never crossed my mind. The fact that they train you to pass the patent bar is very appealing, considering how expensive prep courses are. Would that type of experience be seen as more desirable than going straight to being a patent agent? Unfortunately, they also don't have any postings for someone with my background right now.

In re: #3, USPTO experience will be significantly valued as compared to candidates without the experience.

 

[AnthonyB256]

Hi,

Wow, this has been going for some time, thank you for keeping it going as I've only recently discovered this career option! Prior to a couple of months back I thought I was going to attempt to join NASA with a PhD and a degree in Aerospace Engineering. I'm still looking at taking a degree in this as currently I'm taking the IB with Maths Physics and CompSci at Higher Level. However, given my interest is really in general physics, I can change that. I am also looking at traveling to the US to read a degree so from what I'm applying to I believe I have the first year to choose my major which will be engineering and then select my minor from there. Having read this thread you mentioned that Aerospace engineering was "very niche". In your opinion does that mean it would be hard to go anywhere with a degree in it and I should read something that is more popular at the moment such as electrical engineering instead, or is aerospace engineering still ok for jobs? Also, I couldn't find much about computing, do you reckon there is potential as well in a computer engineering or Computer science degree?

Lastly, a more general question: Is it possible to go straight from a degree into being trained as and entering the patent attorney profession, or is it more common to end up working in the field (say, as an aeronautical engineer) beforehand in order to gain more 'first hand' technical experience than a degree can perhaps offer? Most places I looked up seem to want experience which makes me wonder how you actually get the experience in the first place :P

Thanks
Anthony

 

[berned_you]

Hi,

Wow, this has been going for some time, thank you for keeping it going as I've only recently discovered this career option! Prior to a couple of months back I thought I was going to attempt to join NASA with a PhD and a degree in Aerospace Engineering. I'm still looking at taking a degree in this as currently I'm taking the IB with Maths Physics and CompSci at Higher Level. However, given my interest is really in general physics, I can change that. I am also looking at traveling to the US to read a degree so from what I'm applying to I believe I have the first year to choose my major which will be engineering and then select my minor from there. Having read this thread you mentioned that Aerospace engineering was "very niche". In your opinion does that mean it would be hard to go anywhere with a degree in it and I should read something that is more popular at the moment such as electrical engineering instead, or is aerospace engineering still ok for jobs? Also, I couldn't find much about computing, do you reckon there is potential as well in a computer engineering or Computer science degree?

Lastly, a more general question: Is it possible to go straight from a degree into being trained as and entering the patent attorney profession, or is it more common to end up working in the field (say, as an aeronautical engineer) beforehand in order to gain more 'first hand' technical experience than a degree can perhaps offer? Most places I looked up seem to want experience which makes me wonder how you actually get the experience in the first place :P

Thanks
Anthony

You'll see from job postings that there's a greater need for patent attorneys with EE backgrounds as compared to aerospace or comp si/engr.
I went straight through engineering and law school to being a patent attorney. Industry experience is valued but not required.

 

[AtoSon]

Hello! I've actually been following this blog for about 3 years now. I would like to start off by saying how thankful I am that you are taking your time to respond all these questions.

I am currently living in Canada studying in Electrical Engineering. I always dreamed of becoming a Patent Attorney. I'm already 20 and I'll be 24 by the time I graduate.
Pursuing Law degree will require me to be in school for another 5-6 years and I'll be 30 by the time I graduate.

Hence, my question is the following: how did you support yourself financially by the time you were studying for a law degree? Is it normal for Patent Attorneys-to-be to not have any financial income (other than part time jobs) until they graduate and pass the bar exams?
I am worried that my lack of experience will prevent me from getting a job by the time I'm in my 30s.

I am seriously reconsidering my options. All my friends will all be financially independent by the time I obtain my Electrical Engineering degree.
Thank you so much!

 

[berned_you]

Hello! I've actually been following this blog for about 3 years now. I would like to start off by saying how thankful I am that you are taking your time to respond all these questions.

I am currently living in Canada studying in Electrical Engineering. I always dreamed of becoming a Patent Attorney. I'm already 20 and I'll be 24 by the time I graduate.
Pursuing Law degree will require me to be in school for another 5-6 years and I'll be 30 by the time I graduate.

Hence, my question is the following: how did you support yourself financially by the time you were studying for a law degree? Is it normal for Patent Attorneys-to-be to not have any financial income (other than part time jobs) until they graduate and pass the bar exams?
I am worried that my lack of experience will prevent me from getting a job by the time I'm in my 30s.

I am seriously reconsidering my options. All my friends will all be financially independent by the time I obtain my Electrical Engineering degree.
Thank you so much!

How did I support myself? I took out 100K in loans and worked in the school computer lab a few hours a week. I still have 20 years left to pay it off. My first boss said he paid off his loans (from back in the 80s) with his first paycheck. It's a whole different world right now and that's why a lot of people are choosing not to go to law school.

 

[bunnybunny1978]

Hope you can help. I have an idea I would like to patent but cannot afford to pay an attorney, how can I find out if the "idea" can be patented? on a shoe string budget. Thanks so much for your help on here and the direction and time spent advising us.

 

[berned_you]

Hope you can help. I have an idea I would like to patent but cannot afford to pay an attorney, how can I find out if the "idea" can be patented? on a shoe string budget. Thanks so much for your help on here and the direction and time spent advising us.

The USPTO has an inventor resources page that you may find helpful http://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/inventors-entrepreneurs-resources

 

[ChemEParker]

Hi!

I am trying to evaluate the pros and cons of going into patent law vs. not going (according to my current situation). I have a few questions that would be great if you knew the answer too (sorry if these questions may have already been asked).

1. (Kinda nooby question) If I want to go into patent law, I am striving to get a degree in patent law or in intellectual property? Or what is the difference?

2. I am expecting around an 80-90k offer from my co-op when I graduate, would getting an intellectual property law / patent law degree be worth my time in terms of the starting salary in patent law? This is my major concern because the 3 years in law school at 50-60k sets me back (~ -170k avg). However, during those 3 years, I would have already made +240k.

Thus, just setting up the equation to see when the money from both situations equate:
After law degree:
Starting 140k, 6.833 years to earn same money
Starting 130k, 8.2 years to earn same money

Current predicted path: IP law degree at Stanford / UC Berkeley / other top school.

The salary statements from those schools speak high numbers (median 130k from new grad 2013), but you had mentioned in a previous post that it is hard to hit 150k-200k with a 40-45hr work week. Are most new grads typically working higher hour work weeks to hit and go beyond the median 130k? Or is it more because the average quality of the grad at top schools is generally better than other schools?

 

[bowlbase]

I just want to say that I have been working for the USPTO for a while now and never would have considered patents if not for this thread. If anyone has any questions about the USPTO or working as a patent examiner I'll answer what I can.

 

[Sofia Wayne]

I'm a senior year undergrad majoring in mechanical engineering and have been planning to go into patent law for years. The only thing that's making me reconsider is my low GPA. What are my odds of getting into a decent law school with a 2.3 GPA and 175+ LSAT? I'd write an addendum, but don't have a solid excuse for my low performance. Is it worth applying now, or should I study part-time after I graduate and work as an engineer?

 

[brittney cottenham]

Hey folks, I'm Greg's sister. One career many scientists do not consider is becoming a patent attorney. I've been practicing as an intellectual property attorney for 6 years now. Does anyone have any questions regarding a career in patent law? I'd be more than happy to provide some insight.

How long did it take you to become a patent lawyer? What do they make a year? Do you have to go to court?

 

[Zachman0669]

Hi there, I would like to go into IP law, except I suck at science and math (I like physics however the call was full and I couldn't take it) so I did bio and that was kinda hell. I like Copy Right and Trademark law, but I'm concerned that there is not much demand for that specific area, and that patent lawyers would just do those, instead of having different lawyers work on them

 

[berned_you]

" I like Copy Right and Trademark law, but I'm concerned that there is not much demand for that specific area, and that patent lawyers would just do those, instead of having different lawyers work on them"

This is definitely not the situation. If you want to do TM or (c), go for it.

 

[myakioct27]

Hi there, I read many post in this thread and the information you have provided so far is very informative and i would like to thank you for taking your time and providing all these valuable information.

Here is my Question:

I'm a third year law student and I'm interested in IP Law and also I'm interested in studying Chemistry. What education would you recommend for me to become a patent attorney?
(Do you recommend studying a BS in Chem or can i go straight for an LLM in science related IP law? or is there any other option?)

Thank You

 

[berned_you]

Hi there, I read many post in this thread and the information you have provided so far is very informative and i would like to thank you for taking your time and providing all these valuable information.

Here is my Question:

I'm a third year law student and I'm interested in IP Law and also I'm interested in studying Chemistry. What education would you recommend for me to become a patent attorney?
(Do you recommend studying a BS in Chem or can i go straight for an LLM in science related IP law? or is there any other option?)

Thank You

Chem essentially requires and advanced degree (MS or phd). Law school is a JD and don't bother with a LLM.

 

[lilymarie]

Thank you so much for taking your time to answer all of these questions and inquiries on patent law.

I am a high school student who is looking into colleges, and have been doing research into possible majors and post-graduation jobs to give me more insight into which schools would best fit my particular interests. I am having trouble deciding whether to pursue biology, which is my favorite subject and one I am extremely interested in, and law- which I also find intriguing and seems to offer more job opportunities post-graduation. I stumbled upon patent law when researching the different paths one can take as a lawyer, and it seems like the perfect combination of my interests.

I do not have a problem with getting an advanced degree in biology or microbiology, I am just uncertain as to what jobs will be available to me, and whether the salaries would make up for the large tuition expenses. I also am not particularly interested in lab work, so a technician in a research facility does not sound like my dream occupation. From what I have read on this forum and other sites, patent law is much better suited to my talents and interests.

My biggest fear regarding pursuing this particular career is the amount of debt I will accumulate during schooling, and if it will make fiscal sense for me to dedicate so much time into earning a degree that will make it difficult to pay back student loans. I am a good student (high GPA, multiple AP classes, high SAT scores, seated first in my senior class) and have been recently looking into Columbia University, which, as an Ivy League, is very expensive. My parents would not be able to pay the tuition, so I will have to take out loans and rely on financial aid to pay for my schooling.

What I really want to know is: what is the lowest advanced degree necessary to still have a chance of getting a good job as a patent attorney (do I need a PhD or will a masters suffice), and should I look into a different career if I want to make a relatively high salary without struggling financially after so many years of college? I want to pursue a career that interests me, and biology patent law is my first choice so far, but salary is also a big deal to me when making decisions that dictate my future. Would attending a prestigious yet expensive university make sense because it would make me look more attractive to potential employers, or should I look into going to a less expensive state school? Thank you so much for taking the time to read this, your insight will be invaluable to me in my search to find the college and career path that is right for me.