Should Scientific Discussions Cater to the Lowest Common Denominator?

[Cyrus]

Eh, something really annoyed me in the ME forum and I don't know if I should gripe about it or not because its going to make a lot of people mad and say "if you don't like PF you can leave!"

Do you think I should keep my mouth shut? I think it is a fair gripe though. :grumpy:

Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and bite my tongue...

 

[Danger]

Maybe a PM to the individual involved, if it's a personal thing, or a mention in Feedback.

 

[rhuthwaite]

I think you should tell people how you feel. There are probably people who are thinking the same thing as you and feel like they shouldn't say anything. If you don't like something you should say it otherwise no one will ever know

 

[Cyrus]

It's not against anyone in general. Its just a trend I noticed that makes me dissapointed sometimes, but its understandable at the same time. And to be fair, I do it myself sometimes too.

But when you say things, people tend to take it the wrong way and make it personal, and I don't want to offend anyone here. And I am not trying to point anyone out in particular becuase its not an individual problem.

 

[rhuthwaite]

Why don't you say something like that before you tell the people and then hopefully they will understand

 

[Cyrus]

Because people still take it the wrong way.

 

[rhuthwaite]

I am sure they won't take it that bad surely?! It is just a forum

 

[MeJennifer]

Do you think I should keep my mouth shut? I think it is a fair gripe though. :grumpy:

Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and bite my tongue...

Well silence is golden, so...

 

[moo]

By now some folks are no doubt imagining worse things than you want to complain about anyway. Since you've already brought it up though, I'd say go ahead.

moo
__________________
moo (moo') adj. Of no practical importance; irrelevant, such as a moo point (i.e. a cow's opinion).

 

[Lisa!]

Don't be that sure that they wouldn't take it wrong way! But anyway if it was me, I would have said it anyway...
Edit:
Not to mention that I would have killed myself 1st if I was you!
:tongue2:

 

[Moonbear]

If you're afraid it will offend others if you comment on it openly here, but it's something that bothers you enough that you'd like to see it brought to the attention of the mentors to help address, you can always use that post report button for a post that is an example of the problem and explain it that way...only the mentors and admins see those reports, and we have pretty thick skin.

It's also worth noting that we've been down to only one mentor for all of engineering for a while with enigma's absence, so more things may have been slipping by the wayside there. Hopefully with berkeman and jtbell on staff, we'll have a few more eyes out on those forums now to help address any problems (though give them a little time to get broken in first...they're still occassionally crashing into telephone polls on their flying lessons with the new capes ).

 

[Danger]

I know that telephone polls are a major nuissance, but I've never heard of anybody crashing into one. :uhh:
Or did you mean poles?

 

[Cyrus]

If you're afraid it will offend others if you comment on it openly here, but it's something that bothers you enough that you'd like to see it brought to the attention of the mentors to help address, you can always use that post report button for a post that is an example of the problem and explain it that way...only the mentors and admins see those reports, and we have pretty thick skin.

I can't report an entire subsection! :tongue2:


Well, I am going to bring it to peoples attention. Don't take it personal anyone. Like I said, it is not any particular individual that's the problem.

It's also worth noting that we've been down to only one mentor for all of engineering for a while with enigma's absence, so more things may have been slipping by the wayside there.

Bingo, this is an understatement, and it has been getting progressively worse and worse. To the point where it comes off looking like a joke sometimes. :uhh:

Anyways, I have had no sleep and I need to get some rest. I will post a bit later and nicely as I can.

 

[russ_watters]

I try to look at everything, but certainly I've missed some posts that require action. I encourage you to use the "report bad post" button if you see something that requries action.

 

[Moonbear]

I know that telephone polls are a major nuissance, but I've never heard of anybody crashing into one. :uhh:
Or did you mean poles?

:rofl: Oops. I shouldn't post before I've finished my morning coffee.

 

[Cyrus]

Well, the first thing I have taken notice (for too long now) is that people use the ME/AE forum as a homework help section; yet at the same time, I hardly see people using the Engineering section of homework help.

It seems a bit redunant to have two sections doing the same purpose. Every time I see a HW question being posted in the physics section, it gets moved to homework help usually within the hour.


Just on the first page alone of the ME/AE forum here are all the HW questions that I have found:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=139329

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=139124

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=138571

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=138832

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=138327

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=135576

 

[Bystander]

It's a "judgment call" by the mods whether stuff that belongs in HW, or S&D, or GD, or P&WA gets moved. Goes on in Chem, Earth, Astro, and elsewhere all the time. Hit the "bad post" button, state your view(s), and "move on."

 

[Integral]

The report post button is the way to go. If a post gets reported, any of the mentors can and will act on it. I do not typically browse the engineering forums. If I see an interesting topic I can contribute to I will post. Other wise I stick to Physics and Homework help.

 

[Cyrus]

I do not typically browse the engineering forums.

And I don't blame you, compared to the Math and Physics Sections, the standards just seem so low in the Engineering Forums these days

I try to stay away from them for that reason. From the ME/AE forum, you would think being an ME is about fixing your car's engine...:grumpy:

It seems like it's a pop-science forum and not a science forum. Sorta like a really bad Tech magazine that's full of fluff...:uhh:

Sorry guys, no offense, but its been bugging me for months now.

 

[moo]

compared to the Math and Physics Sections, the standards just seem so low in the Engineering Forums these days

Standards regarding what? Questions? Answers? Discussions?

I try to stay away from them for that reason. From the ME/AE forum, you would think being an ME is about fixing your car's engine...

Interesting. There are threads about car engines, but the ones I have seen were regarding specifications and/or design, not repairs.

Are you suggesting that no automotive topics should be allowed?

Sorry for the quiz, but I'm new here and am just trying to find out what's expected.

Thanks, moo
__________________
moo (moo') adj. Of no practical importance; irrelevant, such as a moo point (i.e. a cow's opinion).

 

[Danger]

Sorta like a really bad Tech magazine that's full of fluff...:uhh:

I couldn't help noticing that you proclaimed that none of us were qualified to contribute to Rainmanaero's question about initial pitch control reversal in a delta-wing aircraft. I can assure you that you were speaking for yourself only. Comments like that shouldn't be made unless you know who it is that you're commenting about.

 

[Bystander]

And I don't blame you, compared to the Math and Physics Sections, the standards just seem so low in the Engineering Forums these days

I try to stay away from them for that reason. From the ME/AE forum, you would think being an ME is about fixing your car's engine...:grumpy:

It seems like it's a pop-science forum and not a science forum. Sorta like a really bad Tech magazine that's full of fluff...:uhh:

Sorry guys, no offense, but its been bugging me for months now.

Plenty of "pop-sci" quality stuff in the physics areas --- threads that belong in philosophy or GD. It's more a matter of being sensitive about the world's view of areas you hold "near and dear." Yeah, it's a bummer when you see how many people there are in the world who think your chosen field deals with things you've come to regard as trivial, but that's life on planet earth. SAE has done a lot for Mech. E. --- they're also guilty of some of the lousiest engineering the world has ever seen (see if you can find bearing specs for pinion shafts in mid-50s vintage Fords sometime). Automotive topics are useful for "teaching," or discussing engineering principles and practices. Grit your teeth and try to make the best of it. Browse Chem, Earth, and Bio --- or hit the "3Ms" in Physics.

 

[Cyrus]

I couldn't help noticing that you proclaimed that none of us were qualified to contribute to Rainmanaero's question about initial pitch control reversal in a delta-wing aircraft. I can assure you that you were speaking for yourself only. Comments like that shouldn't be made unless you know who it is that you're commenting about.

Well, after reading his post the answers in that thread looked to me to be more akin to a RC model airplane forum that I visit sometimes where I see people give answers that show they don't really know what they are talking about.

I'm sorry, but that thread made me almost fall out of my chair.

I mean no offense, no offense, I love you guys...but some of these things said w/o naming names:

Since your question is in regard to whether or not anyone knows of a compensation method other than canards, I have to answer 'no'. My approach to the issue, however, would be to consider moderate thrust vectoring.

Really, are you current on controls literature?

Their general design was flight control of an aircraft without the use of control surfaces. The concept they were working on was directly changing the pressure above/below the wing through the use of pumps and pinholes in the surface of the wing. By either pumping air from or adding air to a side of the surface (I'm not sure which it was), it was my understanding they were actually able to gain control of pitch, yaw and roll.

I too have heard of this, two I have seen at work are a Sparkjet or a Pulse Plasma Thruster. But, I have NOT heard/seen/read any papers on this issue in terms of controls for delta wings to solve that specific problem asked. So it does not answer the question at hand.

The first thing that comes to mind is what they used to fix the pitch authority problem on the Bell X-1 in the transonic range; they switched from a hinged elevator to a completely moveable horizontal stabilizer. The only problem there being that the entire surface may still be effected. Is resizing or moving the horizontal stabilizer an option?

This does not even address the question properly... The x-1 is not a delta wing, and its flying much faster.

If this was a once-or-twice-per-mission manoeuvre, I would even seriously consider detonating a concussion missile just below and in front of the plane and riding the shockwave up. Of course, that's not overly Stealthy.

Ahhh, what?


I mean, not to bust peoples asses or anything, but I would have love to have seen a response like, "hey, we had something like this at work, here is a paper we wrote, or here are some papers that address this problem we looked into and what the results were."

I mean, a lot of people gave answers, and there not wrong, but when I read them it makes me say, "ok, so what, how does that answer his question? What conclusions are you basing these answers on, what literature are you refrencing your answers to?"

If you can't give me an answer to these questions, you don't know what your talking about, I'm sorry. This is what I mean when I say it seems like a 'pop science' forums at times, and not a 'science forum.' This is a lot of stuff that sounds right out of a magazine, with little to no substance\research\maths behind it.

Sorry guys, you all are alot smarter than me. I am not going to pretend otherwise. I just wanted to bring this to light because when I see things like this sometimes, it makes me sad. I don't want the engineering forums turning into a model-airplane forum (where I have seen all sorts of off the wall answers given).

Granted, his question was very specific, but it felt like he was asking a question if anyone had done/knows about research in this area. The guy is really smart, so telling him thrust vectoring is a waste of his time, unless you can show how thrust vectoring solved that problem.

***I post this with much hesistation, but I feel like I had to say it.

Again, no offense, I love you guys, thanks for your help in the past and future.

 

[Cyrus]

Arg, here is another one that gets at me.

Okay, so I'm building a liquid propulsion rocket, about 4m tall, with a 2000lb trust. The propellants used are liquid oxygen and kerosene. Now the trouble is to find a way to ignite the fuels to start the combustion. Do you guys have any ideas? Thanks!

Is this a serious thread? You want to build a 12 foot rocket with 2000lbs of thrust.

Well, do you have any permits? Have you ever built a rocket? Are you a member of a model rocket association and have insurance?

If you do, why are you asking us and not someone qualified with experience who has built a similar model rocket? If you're building a rocket that big with that much thrust, you should have built a rocket before in your lifetime and know people who do rockets or find people to talk to that do large scale rockets. This kind of post shows me you really don't know what your doing, or don't care.

When I see this, I honestly don't know how to take it as a serious thread.

Please, someone tell me I am not alone in thinking this?

 

[Cyrus]

And not to be negative, there are some great threads in there like:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=132304

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=129837

I wish more threads were like these.

 

[Danger]

I can see your point, but I think that you missed the purpose of Rainman's thread. He wanted a brainstorming session in order to make sure that nothing had been overlooked in his own attempts, not specific blueprints and performance charts. Fred, Russ and Astro are fully qualified to provide those if needed. I'm not, but I have a strange ability to think outside of the box and integrate things that normally aren't considered. Whether or not they are practical is for later analysis. (The , by the way, should have been a clue about how seriously I meant the missile suggestion.) I'll continue to mention anything that crosses my mind in that regard, no matter how weird it appears on the surface.
There's no way that anyone of any qualification level can give him a detailed technical answer without having full access to every detail of the machine that he's working on, which is obviously classified.
As for the rocket, I don't particularly care whether or not it works or what he does with it. He just asked for a way to light it and I provided a very simple one that I use for just about anything that I want to launch or blow up. I strongly suspect that the thing won't make it past the 'materials gathering' stage.

 

[hypatia]

"Please, someone tell me I am not alone in thinking this?"
That thread is really a bit scary.

 

[DaveC426913]

Maybe what would solve this problem is the creation of a subforum division between 'amateur' questions and 'pro' questions?
'I am a hobbyist looking for ideas' vs. 'I am a professional looking for professional expertise'

I mean, I think it's a formula for disaster, but I'm just putting it out there.

 

[Evo]

Excellent points Cyrus. People SHOULD be backing up technical information with professional references, this is required and enforced in the other forums. It seems the forum has become one more of guessing and speculation than tested and proven answers. In engineering, I can see a constructive use for speculation, but it needs to be presented as such and not as a replacement for real hard answers.

Perhaps the mentors of the engineering forums can revamp a bit to segregate "brainstorming" threads from threads where serious information is being sought?

 

[FredGarvin]

This does not even address the question properly... The x-1 is not a delta wing, and its flying much faster.

What was the main point of the question? It was pitch authority reversal after a commanded input. That is very closely what the problem with the X-1 was. I don't give a flyin eff if it wasn't a delta wing. It suffered the same problem being discussed. End of story.

 

[russ_watters]

Well, the first thing I have taken notice (for too long now) is that people use the ME/AE forum as a homework help section; yet at the same time, I hardly see people using the Engineering section of homework help.

That's largely my fault - I tend to take a play-it-where-it-lies approach and often leave threads that probably should be moved. I'll try to be more cognizant of that.

And I don't blame you, compared to the Math and Physics Sections, the standards just seem so low in the Engineering Forums these days

I try to stay away from them for that reason. From the ME/AE forum, you would think being an ME is about fixing your car's engine...

It seems like it's a pop-science forum and not a science forum. Sorta like a really bad Tech magazine that's full of fluff...

Sorry guys, no offense, but its been bugging me for months now

Have you looked at the open topics in General Physics lately? The top thread is a common lame hypothetical about the sun vanishing and the second is a poorly worded question about photons traveling through time.

Frankly, I'm not sure what you are looking for here: sure, we get a lot of pop-sci type threads, but so what? One of the reasons I like this place so much is that it is such an eclectic community. Where else in the world can a layman or teenager have a question on nuclear power answered graciously by a Lawrence Livermore nuclear physicist/engineer? The very idea of that is absurd! And we encourage it! It is a truly remarkable and beautiful thing.

Also, pop-sci discussions make kids interested in engineering and that is also a good thing. Heck, they keep me interested. Do you have any idea how mundane HVAC engineering is?!?

I couldn't help noticing that you proclaimed that none of us were qualified to contribute to Rainmanaero's question about initial pitch control reversal in a delta-wing aircraft. I can assure you that you were speaking for yourself only. Comments like that shouldn't be made unless you know who it is that you're commenting about.

I noticed that too and was confused. Cyrus, are you suggesting that only professional aerodynamicists should be holding discussions in the Aero forum? This isn't a work-group for people designing airplanes, it's a discussion forum. The other forums here aren't like that either - you don't see people gathered in the cosmology forum conducting real research on the origin of the universe.

I also took that thread as a light brainstorming session and keep in mind that threads are not private. I often go off on tangents in threads like that specifically for the benefit of other people who might be reading it who may be interested in related issues that are almost on topic. I don't know if the OP question was answered - but I do know that a lot of people learned a lot about aerodynamics from that thread, and that is just as important.

 

[russ_watters]

Arg, here is another one that gets at me.

Is this a serious thread? You want to build a 12 foot rocket with 2000lbs of thrust.

Well, do you have any permits? Have you ever built a rocket? Are you a member of a model rocket association and have insurance?

If you do, why are you asking us and not someone qualified with experience who has built a similar model rocket? If you're building a rocket that big with that much thrust, you should have built a rocket before in your lifetime and know people who do rockets or find people to talk to that do large scale rockets. This kind of post shows me you really don't know what your doing, or don't care.

When I see this, I honestly don't know how to take it as a serious thread.

Please, someone tell me I am not alone in thinking this?

I don't know if it is a serious thread or not, but I'm not going to start with the assumption that it isn't, and even if it isn't, slamming the door on the guy will only serve to drive him away and prevent him from learning anything useful here. We do keep an eye out for things that people may do that may be dangerous, and that thread is borderline, but I don't see any reason at the moment to close it.

 

[Cyrus]

Also, pop-sci discussions make kids interested in engineering and that is also a good thing.

Yes, and I agree. But to flip the coin, look at that thread I liked with Ultima and Rainman about Kalman filtering. That was a serious discussion and the first post by Ultima. He got no answer to his question and he left. I have not seen him since. When you have lots of 'pop sci' posts, it makes people who want a serious discussion want to not stay around. And that to me is the biggest loss, because those are qualified people. Teens asking about science are always going to come and go, its the people who know what their doing, i.e. Rainman, that it would be nice to attract.

Cyrus, are you suggesting that only professional aerodynamicists should be holding discussions in the Aero forum?

No, not at all. But the thread is for Mechancial Engineering, not popular mechanics. I for one, would love to see people like Fred talk about Jet Design research, not sift through threads about some guy with a 4m 2000lb rocket wanting to know how to light it up. And people give him serious replies!? It blows my mind!

Maybe he should go to a model rocket forum. Because that isn't an engineering question. That's a how to. Heck, put it into a 'how to build' forum. But its insulting to call that engineering.

 

[russ_watters]

Maybe what would solve this problem is the creation of a subforum division between 'amateur' questions and 'pro' questions?
'I am a hobbyist looking for ideas' vs. 'I am a professional looking for professional expertise'

I mean, I think it's a formula for disaster, but I'm just putting it out there.

No, absolutely not. As I said above, one of the things that makes this forum great is that laymen and experts can mix in an unintimidating and productive way.

 

[Cyrus]

No, absolutely not. As I said above, one of the things that makes this forum great is that laymen and experts can mix in an unintimidating and productive way.

Well, that's a bit conflicting to me. I can understand a layman asking a question. But I hope I don't see a Layman giving engineering advice to someone. That is why he is a Layman and not a professional engineer.

I have no beef with some kid coming and asking 'hey how does jet engines work', or something to that effect.

But when a guy like Rainman comes in here with a top notch question, and he gets answers like that...man, it's depressing.