Church and JudgeWhere's the different?

  • Thread starter VietDao29
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In summary: I'm lost. I know that there are voices in there, but I'm not sure what they are. I think you are imagining a "t" sound in there that doesn't exist. The "t" is silent.A summary of the conversation is that the pair of words, "church" and "judge", have different pronunciations according to the dictionary, but the speaker is having trouble distinguishing the difference between them. They ask for advice on how to pronounce the words correctly, and another speaker suggests using a text to speech program or looking up the words on a dictionary website with audio. The speaker also explains that learning the sounds of a language is easier for children and becomes more difficult for adults, and that the difference between
  • #1
VietDao29
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"Church" and "Judge". Where's the different?

I'm not sure where to post this thread. It's not really a homework assignment, and it doesn't seem to belong to the Homework section either. While I am trying to improve my phonetics skills, I come across this pair of words church, and judge. Although the dictionary says that their pronunciation(s) are different, I cannot make out any different myself.

Err.. May I ask, how would you guys pronounce the 2 words above? Where's the position of the tongue, how can I do to make the 2 words sound different? Is there any advice?

Thanks guys a lot in advance, :)
 
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  • #2


Do you have windows XP?
 
  • #3


When saying the "dg" sound in "Judge" your tounge's tip should be pressed against the roof of your mouth. When saying the "rch" sound in "church", the sides of your tounge should be touching your teeth, but the tip shouldn't be pressed against the roof of your mouth.... I don't think that helped, did it?
 
  • #4


Church...CH(like the "ch" in chicken)ER(like how you wrote Err)CH(like the "ch"in chicken)
Judge...J(like the "j" in juice)UH(like the "u" in fun)J(like the "dge" in edge)

cherch and juhj

Hope it helps!
 
  • #5


I want to know what a "tounge" is. :wink:

It's difficult to describe how to place one's mouth to pronounce words, isn't it?

VietDao29, have you tried looking at www.dictionary.com? They have sound on their site so when you search the definition of a word there's an icon of a little speaker to click on right next to the word. When you click on it, a voice says the word out loud. You can get an idea of how the word should sound from there.
 
  • #6


Just type it in on that text to speak program on the windows xp control panel.
 
  • #7


GeorginaS said:
I want to know what a "tounge" is. :wink:

It's difficult to describe how to place one's mouth to pronounce words, isn't it?

VietDao29, have you tried looking at www.dictionary.com? They have sound on their site so when you search the definition of a word there's an icon of a little speaker to click on right next to the word. When you click on it, a voice says the word out loud. You can get an idea of how the word should sound from there.

Here's the kicker. In a continuous spectrum of sound, the vowel sound for example, there's an infinite number of sounds along that spectrum. Growing up, one learns to identify several small segments of sound as language and the rest are the extraneous sounds that one might make because of a slight stutter, a space filling "uh", or whatever. The filtering occurs without a person even thinking about it. You have to learn how to even hear the letters before you can learn to say them.

Each language identifies its own little segments as a language sound and, usually, the segments are divided up similiarly enough that a people speaking different languages can at least identify not only which sounds are language, but even identify a Spanish "ah", English "ah", etc. Reproducing the other language's sound is a different story, which is why it's so hard to lose an accent if you try to learn a foreign language later on in life. You learned the sounds of language when you were so young that the process is almost subconscious and takes some work to overcome.

There's always exceptions where different languages might not even have the same number of sound segments. Some of those sound segments from a different language just have to share the same slot in your brain's library of sound segments. There is nowhere to put a "ch" and "dg" if you've only got a "zh" drawer in your cabinet.

Actually, a person winds up just adding new drawers as legitimate language sounds if they really want to have any hope of losing their accent when speaking the new language. Continuously trying to correlate foreign language sounds to your own language sounds condemns yourself to never losing your accent when speaking the new language. So the person needs a "ch" drawer, a "dg" drawer, and his original "zh" drawer and it's not that hard to learn when each drawer is appropriate.

Why do you think Russian words have such horrible spellings when written in the English alphabet instead of cyrillic? The sounds from language just don't transport perfectly into the other.

All I can say is that it will take some time to learn how to hear the difference between the two sounds and you have to watch the person say it to really learn it (could be on TV or video, but in person usually works best).
 
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  • #8


GeorginaS said:
I want to know what a "tounge" is. :wink:

It's difficult to describe how to place one's mouth to pronounce words, isn't it?

Bah, it's one of those typos of mine that just won't go away.
 
  • #9


The vowell sound in the middle of the words is not as important as the "ch" and "j" sounds which begin and end each word.

The difference between the "ch" and the "j" sound, is that "ch" is unvoiced, and "j" is voiced.

"Unvoiced" means that the sound is made just by the air hissing through your teeth.

"Voiced" means that your vocal cords are "humming" at the time.

Begin with the "sh" sound. With your teeth closed, and your tongue near the roof of the mouth, breathe out to make the sound of a waterfall. Air only, no vocal cords. The "ch" sound is made with a hard "t" that is stuck to the start of the "sh."

If you "voiced" while doing this, you get the "j" sound. The "d" is a voiced "t," and the "zh" is a voiced "sh." Just as "ch" is a "t-sh," so the "j" is a "d-zh." (This is why the "d" in "judge" disappears; actually, the d is what turns the g into a "j" sound).

The vowell sound in the middle of both words would be almost the same in England, but very different in America, and also different in Scotland, but not the same difference as in America. So, fix the sh/j distinction, and most English speakers would understand you.
 
  • #10


Chi Meson said:
The vowell sound ...

Wow, now that is a very good explanation.
 
  • #11


BobG said:
Wow, now that is a very good explanation.

What, the whole thing? or the "vowell sound" phrase. Well, it's hard to explain sometimes.

The "ur" sound in Church (as pronounced in America) is a "retroflex schwa," or an "r-colored schwa," or "schwa[r]" depending on who's text you read. One thing that just about all linguists agree on is that it is a vowell. It has it's own phonetic symbol, called a "rhotic schwa": ɚ
Here's the best paper I could find on short order
http://members.tripod.com/Caroline_Bowen/kb/shwa%20%5B%20r%20%5D%20by%20Ken%20Bleile.pdf [Broken]

Note: Y'know, I only now noticed that you said it "was" a good explanation. At first I thought you said it "was not." And I was perplexed.
 
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  • #12


If you don't have Windows XP, as Cyrus suggested, you can also look up the words at http://www.merriam-webster.com and click on the "speaker" icon that appears next to the definition.
 
  • #14


Chi Meson said:
"Unvoiced" means that the sound is made just by the air hissing through your teeth.

"Voiced" means that your vocal cords are "humming" at the time.

Begin with the "sh" sound. With your teeth closed, and your tongue near the roof of the mouth, breathe out to make the sound of a waterfall. Air only, no vocal cords. The "ch" sound is made with a hard "t" that is stuck to the start of the "sh."

If you "voiced" while doing this, you get the "j" sound. The "d" is a voiced "t," and the "zh" is a voiced "sh." Just as "ch" is a "t-sh," so the "j" is a "d-zh." (This is why the "d" in "judge" disappears; actually, the d is what turns the g into a "j" sound).

The vowell sound in the middle of both words would be almost the same in England, but very different in America, and also different in Scotland, but not the same difference as in America. So, fix the sh/j distinction, and most English speakers would understand you.

Yeah, I got fascinated with phonemes after studying some of Tolkien's Middle Earth languages.

Many letters that are unvoiced have an identical voiced counterpart:

Code:
f k p s t ch th
v g b z d j  th
 
  • #15


BobG said:
Wow, now that is a very good explanation.

he is a cunning linguist. i however look at the wikipedia IPA stuff and my eyes glaze over. why can't they just use the stuff i spent years in grammar school learning? i had a friend once that tried to teach me how to say "Nguyen", his surname. never did figure it out.
 
  • #16


Proton Soup said:
he is a cunning linguist. i however look at the wikipedia IPA stuff and my eyes glaze over. why can't they just use the stuff i spent years in grammar school learning? i had a friend once that tried to teach me how to say "Nguyen", his surname. never did figure it out.

I think it's pronounced like we pronounce the word "when". Like half the people in southeast Asia have that name.Yeah, and I never understood all these different symbols they use to help you pronounce something. Like that upside down "e" or the one where the "a" and "e" are stuck together. They give me a drunk "e" and some Siamese twin letters to help me pronounce the words. Thanks for the help.
 
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  • #17


DaveC426913 said:
Many letters that are unvoiced have an identical voiced counterpart:

Code:
f  k p s t ch th
v  g b z d j  th
  ng m   n
[EDIT And I forgot, this can be extended even further in some cases.]
 
  • #18


Colonel angus is a cunning linguist
 
  • #19


Thanks to you guys, now finally, I can distinguish the "ch" sound from the "j" one. :") Pronunciation is really one of my weak-points.. =.="

Chi Meson said:
The vowell sound in the middle of the words is not as important as the "ch" and "j" sounds which begin and end each word.

The difference between the "ch" and the "j" sound, is that "ch" is unvoiced, and "j" is voiced.

"Unvoiced" means that the sound is made just by the air hissing through your teeth.

"Voiced" means that your vocal cords are "humming" at the time.

Begin with the "sh" sound. With your teeth closed, and your tongue near the roof of the mouth, breathe out to make the sound of a waterfall. Air only, no vocal cords. The "ch" sound is made with a hard "t" that is stuck to the start of the "sh."

If you "voiced" while doing this, you get the "j" sound. The "d" is a voiced "t," and the "zh" is a voiced "sh." Just as "ch" is a "t-sh," so the "j" is a "d-zh." (This is why the "d" in "judge" disappears; actually, the d is what turns the g into a "j" sound).

The vowell sound in the middle of both words would be almost the same in England, but very different in America, and also different in Scotland, but not the same difference as in America. So, fix the sh/j distinction, and most English speakers would understand you.

Thank you Chi, BogG, Dave, and everyone else for all of your wonderful, and detailed explanation. :!)
 

1. What is the main purpose of a church?

The main purpose of a church is to provide a place for people to worship and practice their faith. It is also a place for spiritual growth, community, and service to others.

2. How is a church different from a judge?

A church is a place of worship and a community for people of a particular religion. It is not a legal entity and does not have the power to make binding decisions. A judge, on the other hand, is an official in the legal system who has the authority to make legal decisions and judgments.

3. Can a judge be a member of a church?

Yes, a judge can be a member of a church and practice their faith like any other individual. However, they must adhere to the ethical standards of their profession and maintain impartiality in their judgments.

4. Are there any similarities between a church and a judge?

Both a church and a judge play roles in shaping society and upholding moral values. They also both have a sense of authority and influence over the people who seek guidance or justice from them.

5. Can a church hold a legal trial or make legal decisions?

No, a church does not have the authority to hold a legal trial or make legal decisions. These functions are reserved for the legal system and its officials, such as judges and lawyers.

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