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Alternative theories being tested by Gravity probe B

 
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Jun2-11, 05:41 AM   #358
 
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Alternative theories being tested by Gravity probe B


Thank you Jonathan, the Final results have today been published in Physical Review Letters, which you may access through the GP-B website: Gravity Probe B: Final Results of a Space Experiment to Test General Relativity and a Viewpoint article by Professor Will: Finally, results from Gravity Probe B.

In reply to Polestar101 I quote from Professor Will's article for a summary:
However, three important, but unexpected, phenomena were discovered during the experiment that affected the accuracy of the results.

First, because each rotor is not exactly spherical, its principal axis rotates around its spin axis with a period of several hours, with a fixed angle between the two axes. This is the familiar “polhode” period of a spinning top and, in fact, the team used it as part of their analysis to calibrate the SQUID output. But the polhode period and angle of each rotor actually decreased monotonically with time, implying the presence of some damping mechanism, and this significantly complicated the calibration analysis. In addition, over the course of a day, each rotor was found to make occasional, seemingly random “jumps” in its orientation—some as large as 100 milliarcseconds. Some rotors displayed more frequent jumps than others. Without being able to continuously monitor the rotors’ orientation, Everitt and his team couldn’t fully exploit the calibrating effect of the stellar aberration in their analysis. Finally, during a planned 40-day, endof-mission calibration phase, the team discovered that when the spacecraft was deliberately pointed away from the guide star by a large angle, the misalignment induced much larger torques on the rotors than expected. From this, they inferred that even the very small misalignments that occurred during the science phase of the mission induced torques that were probably several hundred times larger than the designers had estimated.

What ensued during the data analysis phase was worthy of a detective novel. The critical clue came from the calibration tests. Here, they took advantage of residual trapped magnetic flux on the gyroscope. (The designers used superconducting lead shielding to suppress stray fields before they cooled the niobium coated gyroscopes, but no shielding is ever perfect.) This flux adds a periodic modulation to the SQUID output, which the team used to figure out the phase and polhode angle of each rotor throughout the mission. This helped them to figure out that interactions between random patches of electrostatic potential fixed to the surface of each rotor, and similar patches on the inner surface of its spherical housing, were causing the extraneous torques. In principle, the rolling spacecraft should have suppressed these effects, but they were larger than expected. The patch interactions also accounted for the “jumps”: they occurred whenever a gyro’s slowly decreasing polhode period crossed an integer multiple of the spacecraft roll period. What looked like a jump of the spin direction was actually a spiraling path—known to navigators as a loxodrome. The team was able to account for all these effects in a parameterized model.

The original goal of GP-B was to measure the frame-dragging precession with an accuracy of 1%, but the problems discovered over the course of the mission dashed the initial optimism that this was possible. Although Everitt and his team were able to model the effects of the patches, they had to pay the price of the increase in error that comes from using a model with so many parameters. The experiment uncertainty quoted in the final result—roughly 20% for frame dragging—is almost totally dominated by those errors. Nevertheless, after the model was applied to each rotor, all four gyros showed consistent relativistic precessions (Fig. 1, bottom). Gyro 2 was particularly “unlucky”—it had the largest uncertainties because it suffered the most resonant jumps.
A full description of the analysis may be found here Post Flight Analysis — Final Report

Garth
Jun2-11, 04:04 PM   #359
 
Thanks for the excerpt from Professor Wills (head of review board) who has looked at many of the efforts the team has gone through in trying to identify and separate the various unexpected sources of noise. His own work depends on Einstein’s GR, so it is not surprising that he would support the conclusions, nonetheless he was very clear that a lot of assumptions were made in arriving at the final conclusions.

It is impossible to know if all the assumptions in the parameterized model are ideal for properly categorizing and canceling each noise without knowing for certain the source of each unwanted signal, but the GPB team seems to have done the best they could based on the circumstances.

The inability to continuously monitor the rotors’ orientation meant the stellar aberrations could not be utilized as calibrating tools (as planned) hints at the amount of noise in the overall experiment. But even attempting to use the diurnal and annual aberrations as the main calibration tools shows the experimenters did not plan on accounting for any solar system motion relative to the guide star – meaning they essentially used a static solar system model.

The issue I would still like to understand is if any of the “noise” might be evidence of solar system motion. If for example we discovered the solar system is just slightly accelerating, then it might explain the anomalous acceleration of Pioneer 10 and 11 and possibly shed light on the unexplained force acting on our spacecraft flybys (Galileo, NEAR, Rosetta, Cassini, etc.), that could theoretically be explained by an accelerating solar system.

Maybe what Everitt calls “strange anomalous torques” are not all “criminals”, as he put it? The point is it probably makes sense to very carefully examine all the assumptions behind the unwanted cancelled-out noise to make sure we didn’t eliminate something even more fundamental than GR, that is, solar system motion.
Jun6-11, 02:06 AM   #360
 
Is it possible to explain in a simple way how to calculate the intensity of gravity effect detected by probe-b?
I mean, I know the formula F=GMm/r^2 for "standard" gravity, but how can I calculate the force generated by a rotating body?
I guess I need to know the distance of the test-body from the main-body, and the length of test-body (to calculate the force which makes it "rotate"), but which is the formula?

And can the Moon generate a similar force by rotating around the Earth? It's another kind of "mass current", I think.
Jun6-11, 03:37 AM   #361
 
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Quote by Polestar101 View Post
But even attempting to use the diurnal and annual aberrations as the main calibration tools shows the experimenters did not plan on accounting for any solar system motion relative to the guide star – meaning they essentially used a static solar system model.
The guide star IM Pegasi, chosen because it was also a radio star that could be tracked by the VLBI radio facility, was itself referenced to a distant quasar 3C454.3, which is at a distance of 12 billion light-years.

As the measurements were angular in nature the quasar's Proper Motion across the sky is negligible (see my post 323) and the solar system is therefore effectively 'static' relative to this distant reference point (see my post 329).

The suitability of quasar 3C454.3 as a stable reference point was itself carefully examined as you can see here: The “Core” of the Quasar 3C 454.3 as the Extragalactic Reference for the Proper Motion of the Gravity Probe B Guide Star, its conclusion:
The core of 3C 454.3 provides a sufficiently stable reference with which to measure the proper motion of the Gravity Probe B guide star, IM Pegasi, relative to the distant universe.
I hope this helps,
Garth
Jun6-11, 03:43 AM   #362
 
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Quote by jumpjack View Post
Is it possible to explain in a simple way how to calculate the intensity of gravity effect detected by probe-b?
I mean, I know the formula F=GMm/r^2 for "standard" gravity, but how can I calculate the force generated by a rotating body?
I guess I need to know the distance of the test-body from the main-body, and the length of test-body (to calculate the force which makes it "rotate"), but which is the formula?

And can the Moon generate a similar force by rotating around the Earth? It's another kind of "mass current", I think.
jumpjack you may find this page from the GP-B website interesting: Spacetime & Spin.

There is no 'force' generated by a rotating body, but it warps and twists the space-time continuum, which introduces a rotation relative to the background continuum generated by a non-rotating body. The formulae for the geodetic and frame-dragging precessions are difficult to calculate but can be found in Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's book 'Gravitation' on page 1119 if you are interested.

I hope this helps,
Garth
Jun7-11, 03:55 AM   #363
 
Quote by Garth View Post
jumpjack you may find this page from the GP-B website interesting: Spacetime & Spin.

There is no 'force' generated by a rotating body, but it warps and twists the space-time continuum, which introduces a rotation relative to the background continuum generated by a non-rotating body. The formulae for the geodetic and frame-dragging precessions are difficult to calculate but can be found in Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's book 'Gravitation' on page 1119 if you are interested.

I hope this helps,
Garth
Thanks, very interesting link.
And what about the moon moving around the earth? Should it also cause the same effect?

I also found this cool picture:
Jun7-11, 08:40 AM   #364
 
The moon also has a geodetic precession, which showed up in the results from 25 years of laser ranging. NB, the formula for the geodetic effect in the picture posted above is now not the only formula for it, the other one gives almost identical numbers, so curvature is not the only interpretation that explains it.
Jun7-11, 09:10 AM   #365
 
Quote by JonathanK View Post
The moon also has a geodetic precession, which showed up in the results from 25 years of laser ranging. NB, the formula for the geodetic effect in the picture posted above is now not the only formula for it, the other one gives almost identical numbers, so curvature is not the only interpretation that explains it.
I was not talking about precessione OF the moon but CAUSED BY the moon.
Jun7-11, 10:44 AM   #366
 
The moon would have the same effect, anything orbiting it would change angle slightly over a long period of time, and over a longer period would rotate.
Jun7-11, 12:16 PM   #367
 
Quote by JonathanK View Post
The moon would have the same effect, anything orbiting it would change angle slightly over a long period of time, and over a longer period would rotate.
Oh God, why can't I explain my thought?!?
I'm talking about moon rotating AROUND earth, not around itself: would it cause any precession effect on earth surface?
Jun7-11, 12:26 PM   #368
 
yes but much harder to measure, hence GP-B. The earth and moon rotate about a common centre of gravity, and in that frame both precess slightly.
Jun7-11, 09:47 PM   #369
 
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A paper about GP-B came out today. I'll get the link
Dec29-11, 07:28 AM   #370
 
Well, it seems that GP-B experimental results face quite a lot challenges even in China's scientists community. I have just read an excellent essay from J. Beijing University of Technology 10/2011 issue that posted a serious challenge:

A Question on Gravity Probe B Experiment Results

Dr. Hao Shi

Abstract

The final results of the Gravity Probe B (GP-B) experiment for testing general relativity (GR) theory published on May 4, 2011 by NASA is somewhat controversial. Since GP-B scientific sensors have symmetric property about the satellite spin axis, we thus believe the measurement errors of both the geodetic effect and the frame-dragging effect should be close to each other. However, in the published results, the former is 2.5 times of the latter, which has not been explained by GP-B final report and thus shows that some physics is probably still missing or inadequately addressed in processing experimental data.

Quoted from J. of Beijing University of Technology 2011-10
Dec29-11, 07:48 AM   #371
 
Quote by jumpjack View Post
Oh God, why can't I explain my thought?!?
I'm talking about moon rotating AROUND earth, not around itself: would it cause any precession effect on earth surface?
Of course, but the question is how can we detect such a small angle from far away? Maybe we can send a laser torch there and then measures the angle with a telescope on earth. Actually that experiment may be even cheaper then GP-B. Then data processing would be much more complex since we probably have to include sun and other planets in our picture since the I and M of the moon are much larger than GP-B gyroscope's. I guess someone must have proposed the idea yet to be funded.
Apr18-12, 04:32 PM   #372
 
Garth,

Thanks for maintaining this thread and for your clear explanations.

I hope that this question is not too simplistic (if so, please let me know where to ask):

Why is the axis of rotation of the gyroscope more or less fixed to begin with? I mean, relative to what? Is there an absolute not-rotating frame of reference in the universe that all gyroscopes feel? What is the local agent that connects an area of space to that absolute non-rotation?

In your post #76 (which is part of a side discussion about a possible sun companion) you said
"The orbit of the satellite around the Earth, the Earth around the Sun, the Sun around the COM [Center of Mass] of its supposed binary system, and that COM around the galaxy would not directly affect the pointing of the gyroscopes. They are in free-fall"

Is "free-fall" a reference to this absolute non-rotating frame of reference?


thanks and regards,

Arturo
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