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Alternative theories being tested by Gravity probe B |
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| Jun2-11, 05:41 AM | #358 |
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Alternative theories being tested by Gravity probe B
Thank you Jonathan, the Final results have today been published in Physical Review Letters, which you may access through the GP-B website: Gravity Probe B: Final Results of a Space Experiment to Test General Relativity and a Viewpoint article by Professor Will: Finally, results from Gravity Probe B.
In reply to Polestar101 I quote from Professor Will's article for a summary: Garth |
| Jun2-11, 04:04 PM | #359 |
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Thanks for the excerpt from Professor Wills (head of review board) who has looked at many of the efforts the team has gone through in trying to identify and separate the various unexpected sources of noise. His own work depends on Einstein’s GR, so it is not surprising that he would support the conclusions, nonetheless he was very clear that a lot of assumptions were made in arriving at the final conclusions.
It is impossible to know if all the assumptions in the parameterized model are ideal for properly categorizing and canceling each noise without knowing for certain the source of each unwanted signal, but the GPB team seems to have done the best they could based on the circumstances. The inability to continuously monitor the rotors’ orientation meant the stellar aberrations could not be utilized as calibrating tools (as planned) hints at the amount of noise in the overall experiment. But even attempting to use the diurnal and annual aberrations as the main calibration tools shows the experimenters did not plan on accounting for any solar system motion relative to the guide star – meaning they essentially used a static solar system model. The issue I would still like to understand is if any of the “noise” might be evidence of solar system motion. If for example we discovered the solar system is just slightly accelerating, then it might explain the anomalous acceleration of Pioneer 10 and 11 and possibly shed light on the unexplained force acting on our spacecraft flybys (Galileo, NEAR, Rosetta, Cassini, etc.), that could theoretically be explained by an accelerating solar system. Maybe what Everitt calls “strange anomalous torques” are not all “criminals”, as he put it? The point is it probably makes sense to very carefully examine all the assumptions behind the unwanted cancelled-out noise to make sure we didn’t eliminate something even more fundamental than GR, that is, solar system motion. |
| Jun6-11, 02:06 AM | #360 |
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Is it possible to explain in a simple way how to calculate the intensity of gravity effect detected by probe-b?
I mean, I know the formula F=GMm/r^2 for "standard" gravity, but how can I calculate the force generated by a rotating body? I guess I need to know the distance of the test-body from the main-body, and the length of test-body (to calculate the force which makes it "rotate"), but which is the formula? And can the Moon generate a similar force by rotating around the Earth? It's another kind of "mass current", I think. |
| Jun6-11, 03:37 AM | #361 |
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As the measurements were angular in nature the quasar's Proper Motion across the sky is negligible (see my post 323) and the solar system is therefore effectively 'static' relative to this distant reference point (see my post 329). The suitability of quasar 3C454.3 as a stable reference point was itself carefully examined as you can see here: The “Core” of the Quasar 3C 454.3 as the Extragalactic Reference for the Proper Motion of the Gravity Probe B Guide Star, its conclusion: Garth |
| Jun6-11, 03:43 AM | #362 |
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There is no 'force' generated by a rotating body, but it warps and twists the space-time continuum, which introduces a rotation relative to the background continuum generated by a non-rotating body. The formulae for the geodetic and frame-dragging precessions are difficult to calculate but can be found in Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's book 'Gravitation' on page 1119 if you are interested. I hope this helps, Garth |
| Jun7-11, 03:55 AM | #363 |
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And what about the moon moving around the earth? Should it also cause the same effect? I also found this cool picture: |
| Jun7-11, 08:40 AM | #364 |
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The moon also has a geodetic precession, which showed up in the results from 25 years of laser ranging. NB, the formula for the geodetic effect in the picture posted above is now not the only formula for it, the other one gives almost identical numbers, so curvature is not the only interpretation that explains it.
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| Jun7-11, 09:10 AM | #365 |
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| Jun7-11, 10:44 AM | #366 |
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The moon would have the same effect, anything orbiting it would change angle slightly over a long period of time, and over a longer period would rotate.
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| Jun7-11, 12:16 PM | #367 |
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I'm talking about moon rotating AROUND earth, not around itself: would it cause any precession effect on earth surface? |
| Jun7-11, 12:26 PM | #368 |
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yes but much harder to measure, hence GP-B. The earth and moon rotate about a common centre of gravity, and in that frame both precess slightly.
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| Jun7-11, 09:47 PM | #369 |
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A paper about GP-B came out today. I'll get the link
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| Dec29-11, 07:28 AM | #370 |
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Well, it seems that GP-B experimental results face quite a lot challenges even in China's scientists community. I have just read an excellent essay from J. Beijing University of Technology 10/2011 issue that posted a serious challenge:
A Question on Gravity Probe B Experiment Results Dr. Hao Shi Abstract The final results of the Gravity Probe B (GP-B) experiment for testing general relativity (GR) theory published on May 4, 2011 by NASA is somewhat controversial. Since GP-B scientific sensors have symmetric property about the satellite spin axis, we thus believe the measurement errors of both the geodetic effect and the frame-dragging effect should be close to each other. However, in the published results, the former is 2.5 times of the latter, which has not been explained by GP-B final report and thus shows that some physics is probably still missing or inadequately addressed in processing experimental data. Quoted from J. of Beijing University of Technology 2011-10 |
| Dec29-11, 07:48 AM | #371 |
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| Apr18-12, 04:32 PM | #372 |
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Garth,
Thanks for maintaining this thread and for your clear explanations. I hope that this question is not too simplistic (if so, please let me know where to ask): Why is the axis of rotation of the gyroscope more or less fixed to begin with? I mean, relative to what? Is there an absolute not-rotating frame of reference in the universe that all gyroscopes feel? What is the local agent that connects an area of space to that absolute non-rotation? In your post #76 (which is part of a side discussion about a possible sun companion) you said "The orbit of the satellite around the Earth, the Earth around the Sun, the Sun around the COM [Center of Mass] of its supposed binary system, and that COM around the galaxy would not directly affect the pointing of the gyroscopes. They are in free-fall" Is "free-fall" a reference to this absolute non-rotating frame of reference? thanks and regards, Arturo |
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