China: Rival, Ally or Enemy?


by wasteofo2
Tags: ally, china, enemy, rival
wasteofo2
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#1
Jan1-06, 11:11 PM
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So, obviously, China's economy is growing at an amazing rate, they've got the 4th largest economy in the world behind the USA, Japan and Germany, and are gonna keep on growing in all likelyhood. They've also got a gigantic army, and in the next few decades could build up one of the worlds most powerful militaries. With their geographical location, there are lots of weak/poor countries around them which they could easily weild lots of influence over, or even take over. Hell, within their boarders now there are lots of groups of people who feel they aren't really Chinese. However, their President has been giving lots of speeches on China's commitment to peace in the world. Not that what any leader says about peace can be taken literally.

But anyway.

They're really powerful now.

They're gonna get even more powerful at a really rapid rate.

What kind of relations do you think they'll have with the west in half a century or so, when they're about on par with the USA.

Could we have another cold war brewing?

Might there be a democratic revolution, that the west would have to take sides in?

Might China slowly reform to allow for more individual liberties and less government control, and become intergrated into the world peacefully?

La de da,
what will happen?
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sid_galt
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#2
Jan2-06, 05:53 AM
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For me China is an enemy. It is extremely fascist with suppression of the people via corporate collusion and extremely dangerous to the world.
gravenewworld
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#3
Jan2-06, 06:07 AM
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ally. china would never want to upset its biggest trading partner i.e. the US. if trade relations with the US ever tanked, the Chinese economy would tank as well. As China's gdp grows from more and more capitalist influences their communist regime is bound to fall. Chinese citizens will demand a democratic government. The communist grip on china is already starting to loosen. I think i even remember my econ professor even saying that in 2006 China will no longer fix its currency, it will let the free market determine its currency value.

DM
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#4
Jan2-06, 06:24 AM
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China: Rival, Ally or Enemy?


Quote Quote by wasteofo2
What kind of relations do you think they'll have with the west in half a century or so, when they're about on par with the USA.
Could we have another cold war brewing?
Might there be a democratic revolution, that the west would have to take sides in?
In pragmatic terms I strongly believe the west is initiating to fear China. Any input that China will have on any matter will be accepted from now on by the west very diplomatically. The relations between China and the US will be monitored very closely but I can almost reassure everyone that the US will be immensely keen on visiting China more frequently. This of course is to ensure a peaceful relationship between the two at any cost and if I'm not mistaken to show a great level of respect. The tangible and ostensible disturbance in everyone's mind is indeed the sheer size of China's military. Never mind the growing economy, if China is to become the next superpower, it will be so by growing a strong, intimidating and fearless military. China has carefully contemplated, discussed and implemented the superpower "wannabe" plan. It is about to realise it by of course recruiting further military personnel, playing nice with other countries and in my belief potentially culminating in turning the "American dream" into the "Chinese dream" since they'll have a stronger economy.
sid_galt
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#5
Jan2-06, 11:05 AM
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Quote Quote by gravenewworld
ally. china would never want to upset its biggest trading partner i.e. the US. if trade relations with the US ever tanked, the Chinese economy would tank as well.
You never know. Tyrants love power much more than money.

Quote Quote by gravenewworld
As China's gdp grows from more and more capitalist influences their communist regime is bound to fall. Chinese citizens will demand a democratic government. The communist grip on china is already starting to loosen. I think i even remember my econ professor even saying that in 2006 China will no longer fix its currency, it will let the free market determine its currency value.
You mean like the Soviet Union? It is possible but I doubt it. In the 1980s we had people like Reagan, Thatcher and the Pope who were willing to morally condemn the Soviets and had the courage to fight them.

Now we have lame ducks and corrupt politicians like George W Bush and a Senate which is actively trying to reduce individual rights (e.g. McCain-Feingold which was approved by Bush and upheld by the Supreme Court), let alone fight the Chinese commies.
Astronuc
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#6
Jan2-06, 11:13 AM
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I would say that China is a rival - particularly an economic rival.

As access to resources and even as resources become limited, the competition will be more strongly felt.

Nations with large economic interests feel compelled to flex their economic muscle at some point.
sid_galt
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#7
Jan2-06, 11:55 AM
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Quote Quote by Astronuc
I would say that China is a rival - particularly an economic rival.
Given the fact that China without the American companies is a dead economy, I doubt that the economic threat of China is all that great as presented. For instance if the US implemented a trade embargo on China, then the US economy would feel severe repercussions but China would completely collapse.
What is much more greater is the military threat which China poses.
Cyrus
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#8
Jan2-06, 11:58 AM
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I disagree. China is an rising power, but not a rival. US-chinese relations are reaching all time highs. Since the mid 80's, chinese and america trade has increased substantially. There has been many American companies started in China, and they are getting acustomed to the American way of life with a rising middle class demographic. Soon, the people will be so used to an open market in china, that they will want all the luxuries of Europe and the US that come only with a democracy. The same will happen to them as did to russia, hopefully less the corruption. Militarily, they have power, but they won't use their power. They know it would mean the withdrawl of the US from their ecnomy, which would be devistating, because we are their number one importer of their goods.

What kind of relations do you think they'll have with the west in half a century or so, when they're about on par with the USA.
We already have good relations, and see no reason for it to change.

Could we have another cold war brewing?
Nope, so long as the US sticks its nose out of Taiwan.

Might there be a democratic revolution, that the west would have to take sides in?
Nope, it will be a transition within the country, hopefully, as in Russia.

Might China slowly reform to allow for more individual liberties and less government control, and become intergrated into the world peacefully?
Yep, you got it.
neurocomp2003
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#9
Jan2-06, 12:32 PM
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russia/china both allies to canada woohoo...
scott1
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#10
Jan2-06, 01:13 PM
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None it's kind of all of them.But it's probally more of a rival then ally or Emeny
wasteofo2
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#11
Jan2-06, 03:36 PM
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Quote Quote by cyrusabdollahi
I disagree. China is an rising power, but not a rival. US-chinese relations are reaching all time highs. Since the mid 80's, chinese and america trade has increased substantially. There has been many American companies started in China, and they are getting acustomed to the American way of life with a rising middle class demographic. Soon, the people will be so used to an open market in china, that they will want all the luxuries of Europe and the US that come only with a democracy. The same will happen to them as did to russia, hopefully less the corruption. Militarily, they have power, but they won't use their power. They know it would mean the withdrawl of the US from their ecnomy, which would be devistating, because we are their number one importer of their goods.
We already have good relations, and see no reason for it to change.
Nope, so long as the US sticks its nose out of Taiwan.
Nope, it will be a transition within the country, hopefully, as in Russia.
Yep, you got it.
How can you be so positive that everything will be so peachy? How do you know some crap might start up with Taiwan? What if they declare independence? What if the Chinese use military force to supress revolution in Taiwan? What if the Chinese use military force to supress revolution in China? What if China's growing power rekindles tension between it and Japan?

Sure the U.S. is China's biggest trading partner, but the U.S. needs China just as badly as China needs the U.S. Who's to say the Chinese might not gain the upper hand, and be able to do all sorts of horrible stuff while holding the U.S. at bay with threats of an embargo?
Cyrus
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#12
Jan2-06, 03:43 PM
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You like to get too carried away H20. Anyways,

How can you be so positive that everything will be so peachy?
Because the chinese are an old civilization that for the most parth as not gone around stirring up trouble.

How do you know some crap might start up with Taiwan?
Because China and Taiwan cant afford to go to war, there would be too many consequences for both sides.

What if they declare independence?
Then well see what happens after they do.

What if the Chinese use military force to supress revolution in Taiwan?
Too speculative.

What if the Chinese use military force to supress revolution in China?
They have before, and there was no major war, so I don't see how that matters. There is already a revolution going on in china.

What if China's growing power rekindles tension between it and Japan?
They have already had tension for some time now.

Might China slowly reform to allow for more individual liberties and less government control, and become intergrated into the world peacefully?
If you turn on the news you would find that this is already happening.
Ortelius
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#13
Jan2-06, 09:56 PM
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China is a rival AND a partner. There is no doubt possible about the intention of the Chinese leaders to become a dominant power in the world, economically as well as military. Their economy is already considerable and growing fast. Yet the problems remain staggering. The govenment wants to reduce the rural population from now >80 % to less than 60 % in a decade, which is still huge, compared to developed nations. This means that in 10 years 260 million people need to be "urbanized"! (the population of the US!) And that will still leave 700 million people living as farmers.
The problems are very visible for people living in China. Everywhere there are industrial zones popping up and farmers loose their tiny pieces of land in exchange for a tiny appartment, creating gloomy suburban "farmertowns".
Yes, China will develop a middle class with considerable buying power and will push it's economy further upwards, but the number of participants in this economy will remain very limited. Chinese leaders tend to become increasingly proud about the great achievements. Yet, it is a numbers game. Shanghai residents can only be wealthy because they reap the fruits of the hard labor of the millions of poor inland Chinese, just like Hong Kong did before. But the same huge numbers can and will be their biggest nightmare at the same time.
Anyone wants to discuss China in detail: www.chinathetimes.com
Polly
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#14
Jan3-06, 01:50 AM
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Quote Quote by Ortelius
China is a rival AND a partner. There is no doubt possible about the intention of the Chinese leaders to become a dominant power in the world, economically as well as military. Their economy is already considerable and growing fast. Yet the problems remain staggering. The govenment wants to reduce the rural population from now >80 % to less than 60 % in a decade, which is still huge, compared to developed nations. This means that in 10 years 260 million people need to be "urbanized"! (the population of the US!) And that will still leave 700 million people living as farmers.
The problems are very visible for people living in China. Everywhere there are industrial zones popping up and farmers loose their tiny pieces of land in exchange for a tiny appartment, creating gloomy suburban "farmertowns".
Yes, China will develop a middle class with considerable buying power and will push it's economy further upwards, but the number of participants in this economy will remain very limited. Chinese leaders tend to become increasingly proud about the great achievements. Yet, it is a numbers game. Shanghai residents can only be wealthy because they reap the fruits of the hard labor of the millions of poor inland Chinese, just like Hong Kong did before. But the same huge numbers can and will be their biggest nightmare at the same time.
Anyone wants to discuss China in detail: www.chinathetimes.com

Ortelius you are really something.
wasteofo2
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#15
Jan3-06, 02:08 AM
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Quote Quote by cyrusabdollahi
You like to get too carried away H20. Anyways,
The world is a nutty place hombre. Wondering whether or not the rise of a new super-power in the world might cause problems is hardly getting "carried away". Remember what happened when Germany and Japan became powerful in the first half of the 20th century? How about when the USSR became powerful in the second half of the 20th century? Countries that rise to positions of great power don't have a long history of doing it peacefully and reasonably.
Quote Quote by cyrusabdollahi
Because the chinese are an old civilization that for the most parth as not gone around stirring up trouble.
What about that whole COMMUNIST REVOLUTION thing? What about Tiennamen Square? What about all the other countless human rights violations the Chinese government perpetrates with regularity? What about the outlawing of peaceful religions, and the violent persecution of adherents to said religions? What about all the horrible stuff in general that the Chinese government does?

I really don't see how China being an "old civilization" has anything to do with anything.

Quote Quote by cyrusabdollahi
Because China and Taiwan cant afford to go to war, there would be too many consequences for both sides.
There are always consequences for both sides in a war! How can you say a war will not happen because both sides will have consequences? By your logic, the Vietnam war would've never happened. Neither would WWI, or WWII, or Napoleon's conquests, or nearly any war in history.

Quote Quote by cyrusabdollahi
They [China and Japan] have already had tension for some time now.
And what if it comes to military action, as opposed to just protests and disdain?
Smasherman
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#16
Jan3-06, 02:40 AM
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Just a comment, but my friend, who grew up in mainland China, describes China as being extremely corrupt. If you're not corrupt, people don't trust you (since you might rat them out or something). Apparently people in Shanghai are trying to stop the corruption, however. China is well on its way to be a replica of Russia after becoming capitalist (well, in reality, it already is).

The current political climate of the US will be that of hostility toward China. Battling over resources and such. Hopefully it will remain at economic battles, but I suspect some young (and eventually old) Chinese will begin questioning the necessity of peace.
gravenewworld
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#17
Jan3-06, 05:34 AM
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While China's gdp has quadrupled since 1978, in per capita terms, china is still poor. China's "one kid only" policy also makes it one of the most rapidly aging countries in the world. Who is going to replace the aging work force? Pollution is also a huge threat to the Chinese development. Arable land has continued to decrease because of erosion and development (how are you going to feed a billion mouths?). My roomate actually just went on a business trip to China and came back with tons of pictures. Many areas of China are extremely poor. If you looked at the pictures he came back with, you wouldn't believe that China's economy has been growing so rapidly. Only time will tell if the Chinese economy will sustain long run economic growth.
kant
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#18
Jan3-06, 06:21 AM
P: 365
It is obvious. China and the u.s will be Rival, Ally and Enemy.


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