The reality of 'Mind'.


by Lifegazer
Tags: mind, reality
CJames
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#55
Apr13-03, 03:32 PM
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How's it hangin' LG.

I build a reasoned argument upon the back of known Laws. I don't build a scientific-theory.
Don't forget that my idea(s) are founded upon a system of reason which I equate to rationalism. Therefore, my ideas are purely philosophical.
LG, if this is truly what you did, then I would agree with you. If you logically proved your argument, proved that it was compatible with physical laws, and proved it was entirely consistent, then it would be philosophically correct. However, I don't believe you have ever logically proven why your argument is the case, and you haven't proven that it is logically consistent with itself, given some of the contradictions I and others found in your first post in this thread. With that in mind, no, your hypothesis doesn't contradict any physical law. But that is only because your hypothesis requires that all laws are consistent and that they always be as such, but generated by A Mind.

Get rid of the inconsistencies in your argument, and then logically prove that your argument naturally arises from some sound premise. Otherwise, it's just a crackpot theory, and that is all it will ever be.

It can be tested by reason.
Then that is what you must do. The premise that the outside world does not exist has never been backed up with anything other than that it seems unlikely to you that an outside world exists. The fact that we cannot prove an outside world exists is not proof that it doesn't exist.

It affects the future of science
No, it does not. As you have said, "I don't build a scientific-theory." You build a philosophy. And if it is correct, which you haven't proven, then it will not alter or challenge any scientific theory, as you so often say. It makes no predictions about the laws of the universe, and science is about the laws of the universe.

Best wishes.
wuliheron
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#56
Apr13-03, 03:36 PM
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But they aren't actually the same thing, rather expressions of the same thing. Make sense?

Thanks for making me look this up, I feel smart again. LOL.
That makes some sense, but also raises the issue of what that same "stuff" is and how it can connect two distinct universes without being a black hole or worm hole or whatever. Nor does it explain how a solitary electron gets around at faster than the speed of light. Some theories still assert that the entire universe is a singularity, and this version sounds like a step in that direction.
Mentat
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#57
Apr13-03, 03:44 PM
P: 3,715
Originally posted by wuliheron
That makes some sense, but also raises the issue of what that same "stuff" is and how it can connect two distinct universes without being a black hole or worm hole or whatever. Nor does it explain how a solitary electron gets around at faster than the speed of light. Some theories still assert that the entire universe is a singularity, and this version sounds like a step in that direction.
Perhaps one of us should start a thread on one (or all) of these topics that you mention, in the Theoretical Physics Forum. These are very interesting topics, and I'd like to hear the other members' feedback on this.
CJames
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#58
Apr13-03, 03:45 PM
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Present a logical argument, derived from the known laws of physics...
The premise that the Mind is all that exists is in no way derived from the known laws of physics, despite what you said in the relativity thread.

I've had dozens of topics where I used knowledge to build to my conclusion.
No, you've had dozens of topics where you demonstrated that your hypothesis violates no law of physics, and you've had dozens of topics that made reasoned predictions based on unbacked premises all the while avoiding using logic that necessarily implies the conclusion.

Maybe you should have tried mashed-potatoes... I'm a sucker for them.
Damn, wrong plate of food. Wy do I always have to mess things up? (sob)

My point was that in this thread, you are asking us to assume that the Mind hypothesis has been logically proven, and are simply asking us whether or not it is compatible with the laws of physics. So I'm asking you to assume the Nachos hypothesis has been logically proven, and am asking you whether it is compatible with the laws of physics. It is. So is yours. Can we move on? I know you think you've provided proof, but I don't see it anywhere. Direct me to a logical proof if you have one. A link? Anything? Pages and pages of explaining how your theory works, yes, but no logic necessarily implying the conclusion. Not that I know of anyway. (And of course, no, I have no logical proof of the Nachos hypothesis.)

Goodbye, ttyl, [:)], [;)].
CJames
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#59
Apr13-03, 03:52 PM
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Perhaps one of us should start a thread on one (or all) of these topics that you mention, in the Theoretical Physics Forum. These are very interesting topics, and I'd like to hear the other members' feedback on this.
I agree. It's a very interesting topic that's kinda lost in here. [:(]

Let's see...WuLi, if you've got PC paint or photoshop I think you can open your avatar and save it as jpg. My version will anyway.

Oh, and thanks for backing me up Mentat.
Mentat
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#60
Apr13-03, 03:55 PM
P: 3,715
Originally posted by CJames
I agree. It's a very interesting topic that's kinda lost in here. [:(]

Let's see...WuLi, if you've got PC paint or photoshop I think you can open your avatar and save it as jpg. My version will anyway.

Oh, and thanks for backing me up Mentat.
Your welcome, I think you were right.

If you had chose something a little less "off", I might have played Devil's Advocate, and presented an entire case for it. That's just how I am, I guess.
Lifegazer
#61
Apr13-03, 06:47 PM
P: n/a
Originally posted by (Q)
Lifey

The question I should ask you all - and demand of you an answer - is, do you think that the Mind-hypothesis (being compatible with physical-law) is worth serious consideration, by the establishment of science itself?

*brutally honest mode on*

Since you demanded - it is by far and away the most irrational form of nonsense I’ve ever heard and has absolutely nothing to do with science.
Nice damnation Q. As usual, no justified reason.
You acknowledge the credibility of my hypothesis; yet still seem to discount it as a possibility. Why??

I don’t know where you get that idea – I see nothing credible about it whatsoever.
Nice damnation Q. As usual, no justified reason.

"No reason". Man's downfall.
Lifegazer
#62
Apr13-03, 07:05 PM
P: n/a
Originally posted by Mentat
He presented the logical reason why you can't prove him wrong, and that's good enough, isn't it.
To be brutally-honest, he presented 'jack'. There's no argument which can use the laws-of-physics to show that a plate-of-'nachos' is the source of all reality. There is only imagination.
I, however, have presented dozens of arguments (based upon all-sorts of knowledge) to build towards my conclusion. And yet, nobody has ever been able to refute any of my arguments, except through squabbling about definitions. That's a fact.
So; he hasn't presented any logical reason. And that's why I don't have to prove that he is wrong. If his logic is nonsense, then what else do I need to prove?
Sure, he didn't attempt to describe popular theories, through use of his Nachos hypothesis, but he's just trying to make a point.
The only point to be gleaned from this specific conversation, is that neither he nor you have a good-grasp of 'logic'.
I was right about you. And it is a shame for one so young (yet intelligent) to have been brainwashed like this, already. A real shame. I mean it.
CJames
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#63
Apr13-03, 07:28 PM
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Hey, feel sorry for me too. I'm only a high school senior. What about my fragile mind? [:)] Alright, I'll have a go at this.
The only point to be gleamed from this specific conversation, is that neither he nor you have a good-grasp of 'logic'.
Ugh. As I said I can't logically prove my Nachos hypothesis. My point is that you can't logically prove it goes against the laws of physics.

LOGIC must inevitably imply the conclusions. I suppose much of your hypothesis is logical, but only when based on the premise that all of reality is the creation of the mind. You have never backed this premise, and I would really enjoy it if you started a thread logically proving this is the case, or at least presenting why it is sound.

Incidentally, I would like to say that despite you accusing me of it before, I am not a materialist. Sometimes I end up behaving like one, sometimes I forget I'm not. LOL. But my point is not that the material universe certainly exists. My point is that you assume it does not, and there is no reason for that. Not that you have given, anyway.

Take care.
Lifegazer
#64
Apr13-03, 08:27 PM
P: n/a
Originally posted by CJames
Hey, feel sorry for me too. I'm only a high school senior. What about my fragile mind? [:)] Alright, I'll have a go at this.
You're alright CJ. You're still unsure of yourself. That means you're still 'open' - to some degree, anyway. [;)]
Ugh. As I said I can't logically prove my Nachos hypothesis. My point is that you can't logically prove it goes against the laws of physics.
No I cannot. But since it was not founded upon those laws of physics, how can I use those laws-of-physics to disprove it?
Within the realm of reasoned causality, your Nachos-theory doesn't get a look-in. You will need unreasoning 'mugs' to fall for it. Only the reasoning-skeptics will question it. They will ask you how you came to your conclusion. And your explanation will be: "Imagination.".
You're forgeting the all-important point - my argument is founded upon the laws of physics. Not imagination.
I suppose much of your hypothesis is logical, but only when based on the premise that all of reality is the creation of the mind. You have never backed this premise, and I would really enjoy it if you started a thread logically proving this is the case, or at least presenting why it is sound.
Gimme a break... I've been posting here for 18 months... and this is the first topic where I've ever asked the reader to follow-through my conclusions upon the back of an assumption (reality is Mind). The rest of the time, I've asked the reader to follow-through our knowledge to the conclusion which I actually make.
Neither you nor Mentat seem capable of making this distinction. At least, you haven't done so to-date.
My point is that you assume it does not
I don't assume that external-reality does not exist. I try to show that the laws of physics can only apply to a reality that is mindful.
I'm not happy with this response of yours. You accuse me of 'assumption'. Yet the basis of my philosophy is that I don't assume anything that is not 'absolute'. That's why I concentrate my philosophy upon science.
Take care.
You too. Do not think that I despise or hate you because you do not see my philosophy. Far from it. I can sense that you're a ~good guy~.
RuroumiKenshin
#65
Apr13-03, 11:36 PM
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I try to show that the laws of physics can only apply to a reality that is mindful.
how about metaphysics? (it isn't reality).

I would define reality as your conscious surroundings. Physics describes it all for you in extreme detail.
CJames
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#66
Apr13-03, 11:53 PM
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I can sense that you're a ~good guy~.
Thankyou kindly.

Within the realm of reasoned causality, your Nachos-theory doesn't get a look-in.
But I just don't see where the Mind hypothesis is reasoned, not from the beginning anyway. Much of it does follow fairly logically, but I have seen a lot of your posts and none of them really seemed to try to give a real strong sense of why the premise is correct.

You have said that from birth, humans have the potential to reason, and therefore reason isn't based on external data. You argue that this proves mind transcends material phenomina. But in what way? It proves, if it's true, that the mind is capable of thought without knowledge of material. But no knowledge of material certainly does not imply no material.

You have argued that our perceptions of the outside world are built by our minds. But this does nothing to prove that the outside world does not exist, that our perceptions are not based on external phenomina, or that the tangible world is completely and utterly our creation. All it proves is that we can never know. We cannot percieve that which is outside our perception.

You have argued that because every observer has his own unique perception of space and time, he therefore generates that perception unto himself, while ignoring the fact that this can be explained purely in terms of physical laws.

I have been listening lifegazer. I've been listening, and I've been hearing a great deal of creativity and a lot of evidence that the Mind hypothesis can work in conjunction with the laws of physics. But I have not heard a logical proof absolutely proving its truth.
heusdens
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#67
Apr14-03, 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by Lifegazer
Incorrect.
Religious people assume the existence of God. Materialists assume the existence of an external reality. I can promise you that there is not one jot of proof (observed or reasoned) which supports such an assumption. Hence, this assumption is no more credible than the assumption upon which religious people build their own philosophies.

I've told you this before, but you didn't listen: Just because our inner-perceptions are ordered and consistent (and hence, understood by science), does not mean that they exist externally to the mind.
Also: Science is not a study of external reality. It is a study of internal perception. Fact.
I regard your statements as nonsense. You can not treat religion and materialism on equal grounds. Religion is a belief in something which can not be directly witnessed, which in fact is not there.

There is an outside reality, we are part of it, and also our mind is part of that reality. I do not 'assume' my own existence and that what I perceive, I know it is there.

There is not one jot of evidence for something 'outside' that reality, and/or for some 'cause' for that reality. In fact there can't be a cause to reality, it would mean something would 'exist' outside 'reality' itself. Which is a simple truth, cause everything that exists is part of the reality.

Your hypothesis about a 'Mind' that 'creates' the universe and all there is, is just nonsense. Since, it does not explain ANYTHING.
To explain something, means you explain unknown phenomena in terms of phenomena which are already well understood.
But your hypothesis about 'Mind' is totally dazzling and confusing, in fact the 'Mind' itself is uncomprehensible, we are not advancing one bit in knowledge whatsoever.

Further, this 'Mind' hyopthesis contrasts everything we know of the existing world, which is a form of existence which is in eternal motion, and takes place in space and time. There is nothing beyond that. That is an absolute proof of why your hypothesis does not work.
From nothing comes nothing. The world does not arise out of 'Mind'.
Lifegazer
#68
Apr14-03, 10:42 AM
P: n/a
Originally posted by heusdens
I regard your statements as nonsense. You can not treat religion and materialism on equal grounds. Religion is a belief in something which can not be directly witnessed, which in fact is not there.
Firstly, you don't know for sure that 'God' is not there. That's one assumption, on your part. Secondly, our experience of existence is completely inner... Mindful. Absolutely so. Therefore, you are not a witness to an external reality. You are only a witness to your own mind. Hence, when you insist on stating that there is an external reality, you do so via pure belief. You are not a witness to such a reality.
There is no more justification for believing in an external reality, than there is for just believing in a God.
heusdens
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#69
Apr14-03, 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by Lifegazer
Firstly, you don't know for sure that 'God' is not there. That's one assumption, on your part. Secondly, our experience of existence is completely inner... Mindful. Absolutely so. Therefore, you are not a witness to an external reality. You are only a witness to your own mind. Hence, when you insist on stating that there is an external reality, you do so via pure belief. You are not a witness to such a reality.
There is no more justification for believing in an external reality, than there is for just believing in a God.
First, explain me what 'God' is or is not, only then I can answer that question. You state that we cannot have knowledge of things outside of our mind. Complete and absolute knowledge is impossible, but this does not contradict the fact that we can know about the world, and do have knowledge about the world.

What I know about the world, is that it is a seperate entity, not in any way dependend on my mind, and that the world has an existence on it's own. I know that a tree exists, and has existence on it's own, wether that tree is observed by me, or not. There has not been any proof that has falsified that assumption, so why should I doubt that assumption? For God on the other hand, we have not found any direct evidence, and some ways in which God is defined (f.i. your definition) exclude also the theoretical possibility for ever directly witness God. So, that stricly prohibits this concept of 'God' to ever be part of the reality, it is strictly bound to an abstract category of the mind.

Apart from these fact, people can have their own opinions and beliefs, that have personal value to them, not withstanding the fact that this belief might contrast scientific knowledge and materialistic understanding of the world.

I do not doubt people believe in a God. It does not surprise me that people on some level are tend to believe there is a God. The tendency for people to belief in something that by rational norms and values is absurd, is what makes people human.
But nobody knows if that belief is justified, or if that belief can ever be tested or falsified. That is why it is a belief. And please note, that it is not my opinion that I am against belief. Everyone is entitled to believe in anything they seem fit for them, as long as this occurs on a strictly private level. For all practical purposes we state that 1 and 1 equals 2, wether you belief that to be the case or not. And for all practical purposes, there is an objective reality, which is independend of your mind. Wether your believe that to be the case or not.

What you are trying to do is mix up observed facts about the world as a seperate entity independend of the mind, and belief. Those two things are not standing on same grounds. They aren't comparable assumptions. Firstly because all our knowledge about the world is based on the assumption that there is an outside world, which is independend of our mind. You state that this structured way in which we see the world, could as well be caused by 'Mind'. What does that explain? In my mind you explain nothing, cause in stead of explaing the subject to be explained, you direct the issue to explain 'Mind'.
Well, the only way we can know of the 'ways of the Mind', is by explaining reality as we see and can observe, and by doing that, we in fact take into account the fact that we assume there is an objetive reality to be observed in the first place.

Also I have told you many times that the artificial construct of 'Mind' as an entity that accounts for the existence of all of reality, is in fact an absurd thought construct. The 'Mind' entity can not be accounted for anything that happens in the real world, cause by your definition, 'Mind' is not part of that reality.
Your reasoning comes about reasoning in empty space, outside of time, and dealing with abstract categories of the mind, rather then reality.

Let me state it like this. Without any material existence, without the existence of space and time, there is not much reason one can find.
Mentat
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#70
Apr14-03, 12:12 PM
P: 3,715
Originally posted by Lifegazer
You're forgeting the all-important point - my argument is founded upon the laws of physics. Not imagination.
Wrong. It contradicts what you said at the beginning of this thread, and what I have suspected from the beginning. In the first post, you ask us to first accept the idea that all reality eminates from the Mind (the Nacho of your hypothesis (no offense)), and then you attempt to show how it fits the laws of physics. This is how all of your threads on this topic - that I have ever seen (and I did a lot of research on them, on the old PFs) - have worked.
Mentat
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#71
Apr14-03, 12:23 PM
P: 3,715
Originally posted by Lifegazer
To be brutally-honest, he presented 'jack'. There's no argument which can use the laws-of-physics to show that a plate-of-'nachos' is the source of all reality. There is only imagination.
But you can't disprove it. Besides, I think CJames is bright enough to make his idea fit the laws of physics. And you'd never be able to prove him wrong, because all of his arguments would require that this first premise (which you can't prove wrong) is true. Sound familiar?

I, however, have presented dozens of arguments (based upon all-sorts of knowledge) to build towards my conclusion. And yet, nobody has ever been able to refute any of my arguments, except through squabbling about definitions. That's a fact.
I did, don't you remember the "Hurdles" thread - which you never did give a good enough reply to, by the way?

Alexander had his causal mathematics hypothesis, I made a "Hurdles" thread, I stopped seeing posts that required the Causal Mathematics premise. This may mean that alexander saw the reasoning in my post - and that of other members, who posted on my thread - and that he couldn't reason past it, (and that Kerrie was locking his threads, because they were leading nowhere - sound familiar?) and just stopped religiously holding to his idea.

I'm not asking that you give up your idea. I'm asking you to prove it past me, not just make it fit the known laws of physics when taken as the original premise to an argument.

So; he hasn't presented any logical reason. And that's why I don't have to prove that he is wrong. If his logic is nonsense, then what else do I need to prove?
What if someone were to walk into one of your threads, declare it nonsensical, and believe themselves to have won? As a matter of fact, a few have done that, but they had never really proved you wrong. They had just proved themselves unreasonable.

The only point to be gleaned from this specific conversation, is that neither he nor you have a good-grasp of 'logic'.
I was right about you. And it is a shame for one so young (yet intelligent) to have been brainwashed like this, already. A real shame. I mean it.
I appreciate your concern, but I haven't been brainwashed as badly as you've brainwashed yourself. You religiously hold to an idea, and wont let go. I, OTOH, would let go of my current stance, and agree with you, if I saw one good reason to do so.
CJames
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#72
Apr14-03, 12:45 PM
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Lifegazer, I hope you respond to my previous post before responding to this one but I just wanted to bring this up.
Firstly, you don't know for sure that 'God' is not there. That's one assumption, on your part.
Now look at this statement you made. Realize that it is structuraly identical to this statement:

Secondly, you don't know for sure that 'the outside world' is not there. That's one assumption, on your part.

If this is not the case, please prove me wrong. But again, only after responding to my last post.


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