The reality of 'Mind'.

CJames

Okay Wuliheron, I looked through The Elegant Universe and got my answer. (Note that the book is, of course, a popular text and not a detailed mathematical paper.)

String theory has shown that a brane wrapped around a collapsing fragment of a Calabi-Yau form is mathematically equivalent to a black hole. Because in string theory the mass of a string or brane is dependant on the tension it is going through, as the fragment collapses, the tension drops, and the mass drops. What they found was that when the tension reaches zero and the black hole has no mass, it goes though a conifold transition and "melts" into a normal string, a massless one, such as a photon. So what they had actually shown was that black holes and elementary particles are composed of the same "stuff." They can phase change between each other. Therefore elementary particles and black holes have now been shown to have a lot in common and can at many times be treated in the same way. But they aren't actually the same thing, rather expressions of the same thing. Make sense?

Thanks for making me look this up, I feel smart again. LOL.

Lifegazer

Then you've made a fool of yourself. I'll show why...
Present a logical argument, derived from the known laws of physics (as mirroring our perceptions), to show how you made that conclusion.
Have you got any such argument?
I've had dozens of topics where I used knowledge to build to my conclusion. I did not just present a theory/idea which had not considered the knowledge which we have.
Your belief in 'nachos' is admirable. But unreasonably foolish. You have made no dent in my philosophy with your plate of nachos. Maybe you should have tried mashed-potatoes... I'm a sucker for them.

Mentat

He presented the logical reason why you can't prove him wrong, and that's good enough, isn't it.

Sure, he didn't attempt to describe popular theories, through use of his Nachos hypothesis, but he's just trying to make a point.

CJames

How's it hangin' LG.

LG, if this is truly what you did, then I would agree with you. If you logically proved your argument, proved that it was compatible with physical laws, and proved it was entirely consistent, then it would be philosophically correct. However, I don't believe you have ever logically proven why your argument is the case, and you haven't proven that it is logically consistent with itself, given some of the contradictions I and others found in your first post in this thread. With that in mind, no, your hypothesis doesn't contradict any physical law. But that is only because your hypothesis requires that all laws are consistent and that they always be as such, but generated by A Mind.

Get rid of the inconsistencies in your argument, and then logically prove that your argument naturally arises from some sound premise. Otherwise, it's just a crackpot theory, and that is all it will ever be.

Then that is what you must do. The premise that the outside world does not exist has never been backed up with anything other than that it seems unlikely to you that an outside world exists. The fact that we cannot prove an outside world exists is not proof that it doesn't exist.

No, it does not. As you have said, "I don't build a scientific-theory." You build a philosophy. And if it is correct, which you haven't proven, then it will not alter or challenge any scientific theory, as you so often say. It makes no predictions about the laws of the universe, and science is about the laws of the universe.

Best wishes.

wuliheron

That makes some sense, but also raises the issue of what that same "stuff" is and how it can connect two distinct universes without being a black hole or worm hole or whatever. Nor does it explain how a solitary electron gets around at faster than the speed of light. Some theories still assert that the entire universe is a singularity, and this version sounds like a step in that direction.

Mentat

Perhaps one of us should start a thread on one (or all) of these topics that you mention, in the Theoretical Physics Forum. These are very interesting topics, and I'd like to hear the other members' feedback on this.

CJames

The premise that the Mind is all that exists is in no way derived from the known laws of physics, despite what you said in the relativity thread.

No, you've had dozens of topics where you demonstrated that your hypothesis violates no law of physics, and you've had dozens of topics that made reasoned predictions based on unbacked premises all the while avoiding using logic that necessarily implies the conclusion.

Damn, wrong plate of food. Wy do I always have to mess things up? (sob)

My point was that in this thread, you are asking us to assume that the Mind hypothesis has been logically proven, and are simply asking us whether or not it is compatible with the laws of physics. So I'm asking you to assume the Nachos hypothesis has been logically proven, and am asking you whether it is compatible with the laws of physics. It is. So is yours. Can we move on? I know you think you've provided proof, but I don't see it anywhere. Direct me to a logical proof if you have one. A link? Anything? Pages and pages of explaining how your theory works, yes, but no logic necessarily implying the conclusion. Not that I know of anyway. (And of course, no, I have no logical proof of the Nachos hypothesis.)

Goodbye, ttyl, [:)], [;)].

CJames

I agree. It's a very interesting topic that's kinda lost in here. [:(]

Let's see...WuLi, if you've got PC paint or photoshop I think you can open your avatar and save it as jpg. My version will anyway.

Oh, and thanks for backing me up Mentat.

Mentat

Your welcome, I think you were right.

If you had chose something a little less "off", I might have played Devil's Advocate, and presented an entire case for it. That's just how I am, I guess.

Lifegazer

Nice damnation Q. As usual, no justified reason.
Nice damnation Q. As usual, no justified reason.

"No reason". Man's downfall.

Lifegazer

To be brutally-honest, he presented 'jack'. There's no argument which can use the laws-of-physics to show that a plate-of-'nachos' is the source of all reality. There is only imagination.
I, however, have presented dozens of arguments (based upon all-sorts of knowledge) to build towards my conclusion. And yet, nobody has ever been able to refute any of my arguments, except through squabbling about definitions. That's a fact.
So; he hasn't presented any logical reason. And that's why I don't have to prove that he is wrong. If his logic is nonsense, then what else do I need to prove?
The only point to be gleaned from this specific conversation, is that neither he nor you have a good-grasp of 'logic'.
I was right about you. And it is a shame for one so young (yet intelligent) to have been brainwashed like this, already. A real shame. I mean it.

CJames

Hey, feel sorry for me too. I'm only a high school senior. What about my fragile mind? [:)] Alright, I'll have a go at this.
Ugh. As I said I can't logically prove my Nachos hypothesis. My point is that you can't logically prove it goes against the laws of physics.

LOGIC must inevitably imply the conclusions. I suppose much of your hypothesis is logical, but only when based on the premise that all of reality is the creation of the mind. You have never backed this premise, and I would really enjoy it if you started a thread logically proving this is the case, or at least presenting why it is sound.

Incidentally, I would like to say that despite you accusing me of it before, I am not a materialist. Sometimes I end up behaving like one, sometimes I forget I'm not. LOL. But my point is not that the material universe certainly exists. My point is that you assume it does not, and there is no reason for that. Not that you have given, anyway.

Take care.

Lifegazer

You're alright CJ. You're still unsure of yourself. That means you're still 'open' - to some degree, anyway. [;)]
No I cannot. But since it was not founded upon those laws of physics, how can I use those laws-of-physics to disprove it?
Within the realm of reasoned causality, your Nachos-theory doesn't get a look-in. You will need unreasoning 'mugs' to fall for it. Only the reasoning-skeptics will question it. They will ask you how you came to your conclusion. And your explanation will be: "Imagination.".
You're forgeting the all-important point - my argument is founded upon the laws of physics. Not imagination.
Gimme a break... I've been posting here for 18 months... and this is the first topic where I've ever asked the reader to follow-through my conclusions upon the back of an assumption (reality is Mind). The rest of the time, I've asked the reader to follow-through our knowledge to the conclusion which I actually make.
Neither you nor Mentat seem capable of making this distinction. At least, you haven't done so to-date.
I don't assume that external-reality does not exist. I try to show that the laws of physics can only apply to a reality that is mindful.
I'm not happy with this response of yours. You accuse me of 'assumption'. Yet the basis of my philosophy is that I don't assume anything that is not 'absolute'. That's why I concentrate my philosophy upon science.
You too. Do not think that I despise or hate you because you do not see my philosophy. Far from it. I can sense that you're a ~good guy~.

RuroumiKenshin

how about metaphysics? (it isn't reality).

I would define reality as your conscious surroundings. Physics describes it all for you in extreme detail.

CJames

Thankyou kindly.

But I just don't see where the Mind hypothesis is reasoned, not from the beginning anyway. Much of it does follow fairly logically, but I have seen a lot of your posts and none of them really seemed to try to give a real strong sense of why the premise is correct.

You have said that from birth, humans have the potential to reason, and therefore reason isn't based on external data. You argue that this proves mind transcends material phenomina. But in what way? It proves, if it's true, that the mind is capable of thought without knowledge of material. But no knowledge of material certainly does not imply no material.

You have argued that our perceptions of the outside world are built by our minds. But this does nothing to prove that the outside world does not exist, that our perceptions are not based on external phenomina, or that the tangible world is completely and utterly our creation. All it proves is that we can never know. We cannot percieve that which is outside our perception.

You have argued that because every observer has his own unique perception of space and time, he therefore generates that perception unto himself, while ignoring the fact that this can be explained purely in terms of physical laws.

I have been listening lifegazer. I've been listening, and I've been hearing a great deal of creativity and a lot of evidence that the Mind hypothesis can work in conjunction with the laws of physics. But I have not heard a logical proof absolutely proving its truth.

heusdens

I regard your statements as nonsense. You can not treat religion and materialism on equal grounds. Religion is a belief in something which can not be directly witnessed, which in fact is not there.

There is an outside reality, we are part of it, and also our mind is part of that reality. I do not 'assume' my own existence and that what I perceive, I know it is there.

There is not one jot of evidence for something 'outside' that reality, and/or for some 'cause' for that reality. In fact there can't be a cause to reality, it would mean something would 'exist' outside 'reality' itself. Which is a simple truth, cause everything that exists is part of the reality.

Your hypothesis about a 'Mind' that 'creates' the universe and all there is, is just nonsense. Since, it does not explain ANYTHING.
To explain something, means you explain unknown phenomena in terms of phenomena which are already well understood.
But your hypothesis about 'Mind' is totally dazzling and confusing, in fact the 'Mind' itself is uncomprehensible, we are not advancing one bit in knowledge whatsoever.

Further, this 'Mind' hyopthesis contrasts everything we know of the existing world, which is a form of existence which is in eternal motion, and takes place in space and time. There is nothing beyond that. That is an absolute proof of why your hypothesis does not work.
From nothing comes nothing. The world does not arise out of 'Mind'.

Lifegazer

Firstly, you don't know for sure that 'God' is not there. That's one assumption, on your part. Secondly, our experience of existence is completely inner... Mindful. Absolutely so. Therefore, you are not a witness to an external reality. You are only a witness to your own mind. Hence, when you insist on stating that there is an external reality, you do so via pure belief. You are not a witness to such a reality.
There is no more justification for believing in an external reality, than there is for just believing in a God.