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Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death

by SOS2008
Tags: death, liberty
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SOS2008
#1
Feb15-06, 02:32 PM
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Sedition …such person, being thereof convicted before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars, and by imprisonment not exceeding two years.
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/sedact.html

But tonight‘s winner, Mel Hooker, human resources chief of the Veterans Affairs Agency. A woman in New Mexico wrote a letter to the editor, as a private citizen and evidently on her own time, away from work, published in a weekly newspaper in Albuquerque.

Laura Berg strongly criticized the president and his administration for its handling of Iraq and Katrina and suggested the country act forcefully to impeach and/or prosecute. Mr. Hooker, the V.A. H.R. chief, discovered that Ms. Berg was a nurse in VA hospital, so he ordered his agency to seize her office computer and investigate her.

He says he has to investigate, quote, “any act which potentially represents sedition.” Sedition? Who do you think you are, pal, President John Adams, Trotsky? Sedition for writing a letter to the editor?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11345744/
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea...99563<br /> 1

Trotsky? Reminds me of this:

IMAGINE A COUNTRY WHERE ...

The government was always right and never apologized;

Any dissent was suppressed, ridiculed, banned or worse;

Secret prisons were denied and never acknowledged or spoken about;

The torture of captives was condoned;

State incarceration was not subject to the checks and balances of a legal system;

Economic plans, like for oil, were established/determined in closed sessions between politicos, commissars and production managers, far outside public view,

and where government claimed privilege in so doing;

Wages were set at the lowest common denominator, no matter what Bloc country you were in;

Government agents had access to your medical records, your library records, your telephone, and your e-mail.

A place where judicial power and judicial review were proclaimed concepts, but simply ignored in application;

Where criminal records of young adults were closed to all but the military;

Where a Constitution was a mere facade and ignored by state actors.

Any dissent, debate and protest were deemed unpatriotic;

The public media was bought, paid for, and provided by the state;

The military clandestinely and shamelessly influenced the national media and public opinion;

A place where wrong was declared right;

Where tapping a phone was like tapping a pencil;

Where lying was considered a patriotic skill;

The extraction of natural resources was paramount to any concern for the environment and the impact on the health of its people;

Where the use of estate secrets,(those things embarrassing to the government) were confused with legitimate issues of national security;

A place where "secrecy" and "national security" were used to control debate;

Where legitimate secrecy, was subject to political use and abuse;

Where "legislators" were mere mouthpieces for and rubberstamps of whoever was in power;

Where you lived and died with the permission of the government;

A place where foreign policy was more important than domestic concerns;

Where fear was used as a political weapon and an acceptable means of control;

Where the best medical care was reserved for the influential;

Where wealth was concentrated in the top 5%;

A place where there was no middle class -- just a small economic and political elite, and the working poor.
This is from a speech by former CIA officer Jim Marcinkowski, now running for Congress in Michigan's 8th District. These remarks were delivered in Washtenaw County, Michigan on February 8, 2006. He was referring to the now dissolved Soviet Union.

President Kennedy, when describing the Office of the President once said:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
http://www.8thdistrictdems.org/index...=297&Itemid=62
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rachmaninoff
#2
Feb15-06, 02:37 PM
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No links? No court ruling? What's to discuss, idle speculations?
Hurkyl
#3
Feb15-06, 02:47 PM
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I don't understand the point of having three disconnected thoughts all in one post either.

Burnsys
#4
Feb15-06, 02:53 PM
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Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death

It's very clear the point, and it's that the us each day looks more like the URSS or like a totalitarian state..

90% of the points of the speach of Jim Marcinkowski (atributed then to the URSS) are now happening in the US..
SOS2008
#5
Feb15-06, 02:54 PM
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For members who aren't capable of independent thought, meaningful discourse, or reading on the subject, this is currently under investigation by the ACLU:

http://aclu.org/freespeech/gen/24043prs20060131.html

The thought that you or I could be convicted of sedition is outrageous and a little too similar to a kind of society we claim we are not.
Burnsys
#6
Feb15-06, 02:55 PM
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I couldn't resist:

Quote Quote by Mattara
“So what if he lies on once in a while? He has a duty to his country and some things are better keep behind close doors.”
- Where lying was considered a patriotic skill
Hurkyl
#7
Feb15-06, 02:56 PM
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It's very clear the point
No it's not. It's three disconnected thoughts all lumped together. Juxtaposition is a common propaganda technique. Learn to resist.

and it's that the us each day looks more like the URSS or like a totalitarian state..
Would you care to argue that? The OP certainly didn't even begin such an argument.

90% of the points of the speach of Jim Marcinkowski (atributed then to the URSS) are now happening in the US..
Would you care to tally them up? And explain why it would be relevant at all?
Hurkyl
#8
Feb15-06, 03:01 PM
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Quote Quote by SOS2008
The thought that you or I could be convicted of sedition is outrageous and a little too similar to a kind of society we claim we are not.
I certainly don't have plans to advocate violent overthrow of the government, so that thought doesn't even strike me.
Burnsys
#9
Feb15-06, 03:07 PM
P: 655
You think is irrelevant that your country is now doing each thing that made the soviet union a totalitarian country.??

If you want we can go to each point.. i will tell you wich points i think they are now in the US, then tell me where you disagree...

The government was always right and never apologized

Any dissent was suppressed, ridiculed, banned or worse

Secret prisons were denied and never acknowledged or spoken about

The torture of captives was condoned;

State incarceration was not subject to the checks and balances of a legal system

Economic plans, like for oil, were established/determined in closed sessions between politicos, commissars and production managers, far outside public view,

Government agents had access to your medical records, your library records, your telephone, and your e-mail

A place where judicial power and judicial review were proclaimed concepts, but simply ignored in application

Where a Constitution was a mere facade and ignored by state actors

Any dissent, debate and protest were deemed unpatriotic

The public media was bought, paid for, and provided by the state

The military clandestinely and shamelessly influenced the national media and public opinion

Where tapping a phone was like tapping a pencil

Where lying was considered a patriotic skill

The extraction of natural resources was paramount to any concern for the environment and the impact on the health of its people

Where the use of estate secrets,(those things embarrassing to the government) were confused with legitimate issues of national security

A place where "secrecy" and "national security" were used to control debate

Where legitimate secrecy, was subject to political use and abuse

Where "legislators" were mere mouthpieces for and rubberstamps of whoever was in power

A place where foreign policy was more important than domestic concerns

Where fear was used as a political weapon and an acceptable means of control

Where the best medical care was reserved for the influential

Where wealth was concentrated in the top 5%
--------------------------
Ok those are the point now i think are taking place in the us. some of course for example:
State incarceration was not subject to the checks and balances of a legal system;
Are not 100% but they are being implemented at some extent..
SOS2008
#10
Feb15-06, 03:15 PM
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Quote Quote by Hurkyl
No it's not. It's three disconnected thoughts all lumped together. Juxtaposition is a common propaganda technique. Learn to resist.


Would you care to argue that? The OP certainly didn't even begin such an argument.


Would you care to tally them up? And explain why it would be relevant at all?
Since you don't want to take your time to read links, or find sources on your own, or reflect upon this topic, I'll waste more of my time and try to spell it out for you.

To begin, this is a story reported in the news that is related to politics. It is about an American citizen being investigated for sedition. In view of the ongoing suppression of dissent in this country, this is just another example of how our country is looking more and more like a totalitarian state (for which there a list of such actions in recent years). Suppression of dissent is an important issue in a democracy. Apparently you and others don’t grasp this.

It is obvious from your quick replies that you are not interested in a meaningful discussion. You do not have to participate in this thread, and I would prefer that you don’t if you aren’t going to contribute in a meaningful way.

A totalitarian regime mobilizes its entire population in support of the state and a political ideology, and does not tolerate activities which are not directed toward the goals of the state, such as involvement with labour movements, religion or opposition political parties. Such regimes maintain political power through a range of measures including the use of secret police, mass surveillance, propaganda disseminated through state-controlled mass media, restriction of a range of rights and freedoms such as freedom of speech, and widespread use of terror tactics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian
Hurkyl
#11
Feb15-06, 03:22 PM
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Quote Quote by SOS2008
It is obvious from your quick replies that you are not interested about a meaningful discussion.
It's difficult to have a meaningful discussion when nobody presents an argument. And since you and Burnsys seem keen on having such a discussion, y'all should go first.
Hurkyl
#12
Feb15-06, 03:24 PM
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Quote Quote by SOS2008
Suppression of dissent is an important issue in a democracy. Apparently you and others don’t grasp this.
Sure. But like any other right, the right to dissent has its limits. I believe that violent overthrow is one of those things a government should be allowed to prevent.
SOS2008
#13
Feb15-06, 03:31 PM
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Back to the topic:

NEW YORK Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.) has asked Veterans Affairs Secretary James Nicholson for a thorough inquiry of his agency's investigation into whether a V.A. nurse's letter to the editor criticizing the Bush administration amounted to "sedition."
----------
The agency seized her office computer and launched an investigation. Berg is not talking to the press, but reportedly fears losing her job.

Bingaman wrote: "In a democracy, expressing disagreement with the government's actions does not amount to sedition or insurrection. It is, and must remain, protected speech. Although it may be permissible to implement restrictions regarding a government employee's political activities during work hours or on government premises, such employees do not surrender their right to freedom of speech when they enlist in government service."
----------
Peter Simonson, executive director of the ACLU of New Mexico, told The Progressive magazine: "We were shocked to see the word 'sedition' used. Sedition? That's like something out of the history books."

In a press release, Simonson also said: "Is this government so jealous of its power, so fearful of dissent, that it needs to threaten people who openly oppose its policies with charges of 'sedition'?"
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001995631

Americans should be shocked to see that word.
crazycalhoun
#14
Feb15-06, 03:32 PM
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Civilian public employee? Sounds like fair game to me.
SOS2008
#15
Feb15-06, 03:34 PM
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Come on towns folk, go git yer ropes. We gotta hangin' to tend to! DNFTT
cronxeh
#16
Feb15-06, 04:50 PM
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Quote Quote by SOS2008
Come on towns folk, go git yer ropes. We gotta hangin' to tend to! DNFTT
Non-violent sedition is our constitutional right! I cant imagine how dangerous a VA nurse can be, writing all those letters.. oh boy she must've freaked the editor out
Art
#17
Feb16-06, 07:17 AM
P: 1,511
Quote Quote by Hurkyl
Sure. But like any other right, the right to dissent has its limits. I believe that violent overthrow is one of those things a government should be allowed to prevent.
I don't understand the point of having three disconnected thoughts all in one post either.
The OP refers to a woman investigated for sedition for writing a letter, critical of the gov't, to the editor of a newspaper.

This apparent attempt to suppress freedom of speech is reminiscent of the practices employed within the old USSR. To see if there is a further correlation between the USA of today and the USSR of yesteryear SOS listed the 'negative' characteristics which defined the USSR and as can be seen there are a lot of similarities

This is obviously critical of the current admin. and as it is a popular GOP strategy these days to label it's detractors as being unpatriotic the final quote is to avoid that particular rebuttal by demonstrating that in the opinion of one of America's most respected presidents the opposite is true.

I'm sure most folk here have had no problem connecting the dots and some may see your responses as mere deliberate obfuscations rather than as serious contributions to an interesting political topic.
Hurkyl
#18
Feb16-06, 07:59 AM
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The OP refers to a woman investigated for sedition for writing a letter, critical of the gov't, to the editor of a newspaper.
I anything I've read, the letter was never described as being merely critical.


This apparent attempt to suppress freedom of speech is reminiscent of the practices employed within the old USSR.
Analogies are good for clarifying an argument. They cannot serve as a replacement for one.


I'm sure most folk here have had no problem connecting the dots and some may see your responses as mere deliberate obfuscations rather than as serious contributions to an interesting political topic.
When someone is trying to make a point, the burden is in them to present an argument. It is not on the listener to try and string together an argument for that person.

In other words. I can't obfuscate something that isn't there. There may very well be an interesting discussion to be had, and I'm trying to wring it out of the OP.


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