
#1
Feb2706, 05:37 PM

P: 22

These Q's are probably simple for those of you who have/completed a course in Vector Calculus. But I'm only a higschool/secondaryschool student, so I haven't.
1. I'm not sure how the infinitisemal magnetic flux density [itex]d\textbf{B}[/itex] from a wire element [itex]d\textbf{l}[/itex] with a current [itex]I[/itex], which is [tex]d\textbf{B}=\frac{\mu_0I}{4\pi}\frac{d\textbf{l}\times\textbf{x}}{\tex tbf{x}^3}[/tex] Can be written as [tex]\textbf{B}(\textbf{x})=\frac{\mu_0}{4\pi}\int\textbf{J}(\textbf{x}')\ti mes\frac{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'^3}\,d^3x'[/tex] Is it by using the definition of the current density, [tex]I=\iint_A \textbf{J}\bullet\textbf{n}\,dA[/tex] and insert this in the equation? but I can't figure it out, hope someone can help me on this one. 2. I know that [tex]\frac{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'^3} = \nabla\left(\frac{1}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}\right)[/tex] It is then stated that by the use of this, you get [tex]\textbf{B}(\textbf{x})=\frac{\mu_0}{4\pi}\,\nabla\times\int\frac{\textb f{J}(\textbf{x}')}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}\,d^3x'[/tex] Is this because [tex]\nabla\left(\frac{1}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}\right)\times\textbf{J}(\textbf{x}')=\frac{1}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}\left(\nabla\times\textbf{J}(\textbf{x}')\right)[/tex] But what happens to the minus sign? Is it because that be take the gradient with respect to [itex]\textbf{x}[/itex] which is negative, and therefore when we take the curl of the current density we have to take it with respect to [itex]\textbf{x}'[/itex] which is negative, and therefore the gradient would be positive? The book I'm using is John David Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics, 3. ed This subject can be found under 5.3, page 178. 



#2
Feb2706, 06:29 PM

HW Helper
P: 2,566

For the first one, consider the magnetic field generated by some differential volume element d^{3}x containing current density [itex]\vec J[/itex]. First we need to find the total current flowing in d^{3}x. Assume we have axes lined up so that z is parellel to J. This is only for convenience, as we will switch back to coordinate free notation at the end. Then d^{3}x=dxdydz, and the total current is [itex]I = \vec J dx dy[/itex]. Then [itex]I d\vec l= \vec J dx dy dz = \vec J d^3 x [/itex]. The rest should follow pretty easily from this.




#3
Feb2706, 06:39 PM

P: 22

Thanks, I think I understand it now.
But what about my 2. question. Am I correct on that statement? 



#4
Feb2706, 06:49 PM

HW Helper
P: 2,566

Magnetostatics
That isn't the correct product rule. You want:
[tex] \vec \nabla \times (f \vec A ) = f \vec \nabla \times \vec A + \vec \nabla f \times \vec A [/tex] Then you substitute two of these terms in for the third (the one you have) in your integral. One of them can be pulled outside the integral over x', since it is a derivative over x, and the other can be shown to vanish. Don't forget that the order of the cross product can be reversed at the cost of a minus sign, ie, [itex] \vec A \times \vec B = \vec B \times \vec A [/itex]. 



#5
Feb2806, 12:08 AM

P: 22

O yeah that correct I can't just do such operations as in my first post.
But when I use that like [tex]\textbf{A}\times (\nabla f) = \nabla f \times\textbf{A} = \nabla\times(f\textbf{A})  \nabla f\times\textbf{A} = \nabla\times(f\textbf{A}) + \textbf{A} \times\nabla f[/tex] Is that correct? And if so, how do you get [tex]\int_V\nabla\times(f\textbf{A}) + \textbf{A} \times\nabla f\,dV=\nabla\times\int_Vf\textbf{A}\,dV[/tex] 



#6
Feb2806, 01:45 AM

Sci Advisor
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PF Gold
P: 4,768

You're in high school and reading Jackson for your personal amusement? I'm intimidated.




#7
Feb2806, 10:56 AM

HW Helper
P: 2,566

Actually, that's not correct either. You have the same term on both sides. Once you do have the correct formula, for one of the terms you can pull the curl outside the integral, since the curl is a derivative with respect to x and the integral is over x'. This is an simple extension of the single variable rule:
[tex]\int \left( \frac{\partial }{\partial y} f(x,y) \right) dx = \frac{d}{dy} \int f(x,y) dx[/tex] The other term will vanish because J(x') does not depend on x. 



#8
Feb2806, 05:38 PM

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P: 1,322

Hi Vegeta,
The thing your looking at is [tex] \int \textbf{J}(\textbf{x}') \times \frac{\textbf{x}  \textbf{x}'}{\textbf{x}  \textbf{x}'^3} \, d^3 x'[/tex], right? The trick is to write the second part as a gradient like this: [tex] \int \textbf{J}(\textbf{x}') \times \frac{\textbf{x}  \textbf{x}'}{\textbf{x}  \textbf{x}'^3} \, d^3 x'= \int \textbf{J}(\textbf{x}') \times \left(  \nabla \frac{1}{\textbf{x}  \textbf{x}'}\right) \, d^3 x' [/tex] where the derivative is with respect to [tex] \textbf{x} [/tex] not [tex] \textbf{x}' [/tex]. Now by swtiching the order of the cross porduct you get [tex] \int \left( \nabla \frac{1}{\textbf{x}  \textbf{x}'}\right) \times \textbf{J}(\textbf{x}') \, d^3 x' = \int \nabla \times \left( \frac{\textbf{J}(\textbf{x}') }{\textbf{x}  \textbf{x}'}\right) \, d^3 x' [/tex] since [tex] \textbf{J} [/tex] doesn't depend on [tex] \textbf{x} [/tex]. Now you can take the gradient outside the integral. A good thing to remember is that [tex] \textbf{x}  \textbf{x}'  [/tex] is symmetric in its arguments, so its an often used trick to switch which argument you're differentiating with respect to. 



#9
Mar106, 04:02 AM

P: 22

Ohh now I see why StatusX said "Actually, that's not correct
either.", that's because in post 5 I wrote [tex]\textbf{A}\times (\nabla f) = \nabla f \times\textbf{A} = \nabla\times(f\textbf{A})  \nabla f\times\textbf{A}[/tex] Hehe that makes no sense, it was a typing error. What I meant was [tex]\textbf{A}\times (\nabla f) = \nabla f \times\textbf{A} = \nabla\times(f\textbf{A})  f\left(\nabla\times\textbf{A}\right)[/tex] Which should be correct, because this is the formula Statusx said I should use; [tex]\vec \nabla \times (f \vec A ) = f \vec \nabla \times \vec A + \vec \nabla f \times \vec A[/tex] Now with [itex]\textbf{A}=\textbf{J}(\textbf{x}')[/itex] and [itex]f = 1/\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'[/itex], under the integral we then have [tex]\nabla\times\left(\frac{\textbf{J}(\textbf{x}')}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}\right)  \frac{1}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}\left(\nabla\times\textbf{J}(\textbf{x}')\right)[/tex] Now you say that the curl(J(x')) = 0, why? I know you say that this is because J doesn't depend on x, but is that general in vectorcalculus? I can't see any of those LaTeX generated equations, only in TeX code, but that's ok. But I can't see the TeX code either on your last equation Physics Monkey. Then the curl can be taken out side the integral because the curl is taken with respect to x and the integral is with respect to x', and as StatusX says, "This is an simple extension of the single variable rule" [tex]\int \left( \frac{\partial }{\partial y} f(x,y) \right) dx = \frac{d}{dy} \int f(x,y) dx[/tex] Therefor I get [tex]\nabla\times\int\frac{\textbf{J}(\textbf{x}')}{\textbf{x}\textbf{x}'}\,d^3x'[/tex] So is my statements correct now? 



#10
Mar106, 01:24 PM

HW Helper
P: 2,566





#11
Mar106, 04:37 PM

P: 22

Thanks, I think I understand now. Because curl(J(x')) is like a derivative to J(x'), and since J doesn't depend on x, as you both said, then the "derivative" of J with respect to x must be 0.
Btw how long will it be, before the LaTeX will be working? 


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