Why I love the price of gasoline

Meanwhile back in Detroit -

US automakers want end to hybrid credits!

But why?

A report today suggests GM and Ford are lobbying for rules that would reduce the incentive to buy hybrids. Why? Japanese auto giants Toyota and Honda are miles ahead in the hybrid game. Bob Moon explains.

 Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor Staff Emeritus Well, that's encouraging. The irony with hybrids right now is that the price is inflated by demand resulting from the small scale production levels. With sufficient production, the price would drop dramatically. For our next car, I'd like to go with a hybrid diesel capable of running biofuels, but I'm not sure if that animal exists yet in the mainstream market. I do think the hybrid can work nicely with alternative fuels. Due to the constant load and RPM demand on the engine made possible by some designs, even turbines become feasible for basic transportation, but I don't think these are sold yet either.

 George Huebener saw the gas turbine as the future engine for automobiles. Automobile turbines can be small, light, and durable and have 80 percent fewer moving parts than a piston engine. They can burn almost any liquid fuel and need no oil changes or radiators. However, little of the experience with aircraft jet engines can be applied to ground vehicles. Instead of operating near maximum power, an automobile engine spends most of its life at 10 to 15 percent load, and its duty cycle consists of constant accelerations and decelerations. Aerodynamic components of automobile turbine engines are extremely small, but must be proportionally as accurate as those in large jet engines and operate at much higher rotational speeds. The engine must be produced at low cost and have excellent fuel economy. The first prototype turbine was built in 1953 and installed in a production Plymouth car. It was the first of six generations of experimental turbines. In 1963 Chrysler put fifty gas turbines in hand-built vehicles for public assessment. Thirty thousand letters were received from people who wanted to be part of the test. A marketing program selected 203 representative drivers in forty-eight states and the District of Columbia.
http://fermat.nap.edu/books/0309074118/html/128.html

http://www.barracudamagazine.com/turbine.html

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/ar...ml?&A=0764&P=1

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbine.html

Better turbines are now available these days.
 Admin Diesel Hybrid Electric Cars Now! http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/000791.html Biodiesel Car Captures Highest Ratings In Six Performance Categories At The 2003 Michelin Challenge Bibendum http://thesoydailyclub.com/Biodiesel...um09302003.asp Green Report: Berkeley Goes Biodiesel http://car-reviews.automobile.com/ne...biodiesel/511/ Normal Will Try Biodiesel http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=32181 Manufacturing Incentives for Alternative Fuel Vehicles (EPA, 1998) http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-GENE...y-31/g8364.htm What have US automakers been doing in eight years - gasoline powered SUV's and light trucks.

Recognitions:
Gold Member
Staff Emeritus
 Quote by Astronuc Better turbines are now available these days.
However, that misses the point. With a hybrid, the load on the turbine can be made constant, which in principle makes it appropriate for the application of basic transportation. The electrical system buffers the load.

Recognitions:
Gold Member
Staff Emeritus
 Quote by Astronuc Meanwhile back in Detroit - US automakers want end to hybrid credits! But why? A report today suggests GM and Ford are lobbying for rules that would reduce the incentive to buy hybrids.
And what about the huge tax credits that you get for buying an SUV ? A small business can apply the entire price of an SUV towards a tax credit. Others still get a big credit for buying an SUV weighing (maximum loaded weight) over 6000 lbs.

I think you might get a bigger credit for buying a Hummer than for a Prius. Anyway, I wonder if this (lobbying by Ford, GM) will generate any significant traction. I think it unlikely.

Recognitions:
Gold Member
Staff Emeritus

From "Diesel Hybrid Electric Cars Now!"
 The irony is that diesel hybrids could be far more efficient and clean than anything now on the market, without any leaps in technology. The combination of modern clean diesel engines, Prius-style serial hybrid-electric systems, and biodiesel/vegetable oil fuels could provide amazing mileage, cleaner air, and vastly reduced petroleum dependency. Comfortable, powerful sedans could get upwards of 80 miles per gallon and be carbon-neutral.
So this appears to be a potential budding market.

 Quote by Ivan Seeking However, that misses the point. With a hybrid, the load on the turbine can be made constant, which in principle makes it appropriate for the application of basic transportation. The electrical system buffers the load.
I was thinking more in terms of reliablity from the materials side, as well as efficiency. And I believe they are smaller and lighter.

I know ORNL was doing R&D on materials and components, and that was years ago.

'Extreme Hybrid' Car gets 250 mpg

 AFS Trinity Power Corporation has filed its patent application disclosing the company's new technology for an Extreme Hybrid car capable of carrying the average American motorist more than 250 miles on a single gallon of gasoline or ethanol. The Extreme Hybrid will plug into a house's electrical current overnight to run without gasoline or ethanol for the 40 miles that the average American drives each day. For longer trips, the vehicle will operate as a conventional hybrid that efficiently burns gasoline or ethanol. The AFS Trinity patent filing discloses that Fast Energy Storage technology, including ultracapacitors, controllers and power electronics, will enable the Extreme Hybrid(TM) to overcome the limitations of the energy storage components of conventional hybrids and other plug-in designs.
(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20060504/DETH037 )

AFS Trinity Today Files Patent Disclosing Technology For 250 Mpg 'Extreme Hybrid' Plug-In Car-Gasoline and electricity cost expected to be $8 per week versus$36 for gasoline for the average American driver today
 I think gpm makes more sense than mpg. Then, you realize that 100mpg and 250mpg are the same thing, but there's a world of a difference between, 17mpg and 20mpg.
 Admin Well if we start comparing electric vs gasoline, then we need to be comparing in terms of distance/energy, e.g. km/kJ or miles/kJ. I wish the US would change to metric already. Well, at least we don't use leagues/horsepower-fortnight.

250 Mpg Hybrid Car - the link went bad in the other post, so here is an alternative

AFS Trinity Today Files Patent Disclosing Technology For 250 Mpg 'Extreme Hybrid' Plug-In Car

 SEATTLE, May 4 /PRNewswire/ -- AFS Trinity Power Corporation today filed its patent application disclosing the company's new technology for an Extreme Hybrid(TM) car capable of carrying the average American motorist more than 250 miles on a single gallon of gasoline or ethanol.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060504/deth037.html?.v=14

 Quote by Ivan Seeking Are there any other large consumers of VO, besides restaurants and processiong plants?
I just read a comment in a book, "Materials and Process in Manufacturing", which mentions that vegetable oil may emerge as an industrial quenchant, rather than mineral oil.

Mentor
 Quote by Ivan Seeking The irony with hybrids right now is that the price is inflated by demand resulting from the small scale production levels. With sufficient production, the price would drop dramatically.
Something I didn't know until talking with a hybrid owner recently, in addition to (because of) what you said, many/most hybrids are packaged with high-end options, standard. Ie, you can't buy a Civic hybrid without the automatic climate control, which is optional on the standard Civic. That's another way the economics are driving the cost up.

Competition and expanding product lines will certanly help.

 Quote by Ivan Seeking I had to laugh at the logic used by a reporter last night. He was trying to make the point that local stations have no incentive to engage in price gouging. The logic was that the station owners primarily make money from the mini-marts found inside most stations. If they raise their gas prices, the reporter reasoned, people wouldn't have as much money to spend inside.
Having been involved in the discovery process with a friend who was looking to buy a business, I can attest that this is so. At most service station mini marts the Owner of the business gets a fixed price per gallon as part of the contract to purchase the business. Higher prices would definitely hurt especialy the ones that rely on the working poor, as well as the working lower middle class.

Unless they have renegotiated the stations will not see an increase in profits.

 Quote by russ_watters Fuel efficiency is only a temporary solution to the problem, but it would help a lot and it isn't that much of a stretch to raise average fuel efficiency by 30% or so. That would be a heckuva good start.
Doesn't look like Bush is interested in efficiency.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0531/p02s01-uspo.html

 If Congress accepts the Energy Department's proposed 2007 budget, it will cut \$152 million - some 16 percent - from this year's budget for energy-efficiency programs. Adjusting for inflation, it would mean the US government would spend 30 percent less on energy efficiency next year than it did in 2002, the ACEEE says.
 Quote by russ_watters In any case, being a capitalist, I agree with Ivan's central premise: capitalist market forces are what is required to push the needed changes.
Being a realist I must agree, however it is sad that greed is the primary motivator of our society.

There is very little "free market" in the oil energy industry. The energy policy of the oil companies and this administration are simple:

1. Maximize profits on the last of the cheap oil.
2. Suppress efficiency to keep up demand.
3. Starve alternative research. (research not in line with hydrogen.)
4. Build the hydrogen infrastructure so that they control the chosen energy vehicle.

The free market is the only force powerful enough to shift the future of energy from that being predetermined in secret energy meetings with the the Vice President.

I believe that this is one big "jack move", and it frightens me to think of what they may do next, in order to hold onto power.