Too Many Jails, Too many Prisoners! WHY? Is there a better WAY?

timejim

I say utilize the Jail (lock up) sytem for violent offenders only, those that have committed acts of physical violence against another. The others, non violent offenders, do not incarcerate. Rather, let's come up with better, workable solutions. Say, as an example, wear a "locating" device during your "punishment period. Continue working in Society. Pay back restitution and/or damages to the wronged party, that being deducted from your wages. With the tracking device your whereabouts could be monitored and an alert would be given if you attempted to go where you were prohibited. I haven't come up what to do with someone who was a habitual offender. Do you have any ideas?

Mr. Robin Parsons

Hummm 1984 ... hummm 2004 hummm?

Ivan Seeking

The drug laws have collapsed the justice system. Think tanks have recognized this threat for decades. So have many of this country's most notable liberals like Walter Cronkite; and conservatives like William F. Buckley Jr.

Only one way out that I can see; adults get to make their own lifestyle choices. This goes as well for seat-belt laws, helmet laws, and how one chooses to raise their kids.

Instead what I think will happen is that terrorism and drugs will be used as excuses to further deteriorate constitutional liberties. Child welfare laws will subjugate what’s left of parental control, and DNA will be used to select the genetically elite for employment.

It’s all about control. Now we are talking about forced labor for inmates. SLAVE LABOR comes cheaply Mr. CEO.

phatmonky

When some moron gets his head smashed on the concrete, I don't want my ambulance being wasted on him. He chose to make a fender bender into a life threatening situation, so now either

1> An ambulance for a real emergency is tied up
2> or more ambulances must be on call to keep the same quality of service and insurance rates increase.

Helmet and seatbelt laws are there for the rest of us too. In a perfect world I don't really care, but this is reality.

Same goes for raising kids? I'm going to give you a chance to explain this one before I jump to the very obvious conclusions...

Ivan Seeking

What obvious conclusion? I think you need to settle down a bit. You don't even know me.

Shall we ban surfing, mountain climbing, biking, skydiving, SCUBA diving, running without the proper shoes, taking your kids to violent movies, feeding your kids the wrong foods...

I could make the same argument for these and many more activities; and I get tired of paying for others [who engage in these dangerous activities] through my taxes and insurance costs. Every year here in the NW we hear of rescue after rescue for skiers and climbers that tie up ten times the resources that a car accident does. I believe in using seat belts, and I believe in wearing helmets. But when we start regulating the minutia of people’s lives we have hit the slippery slope. Laws regulating homosexual behavior are falling by similar arguments.

Ivan Seeking

I should add that for almost 20 years I have watched methamphetamines destroy my brother. I watched my parents struggle with no options but to turn him into the police; they couldn't afford any drug treatment programs. Now my brother can barely hold a conversation. I don't know if he can really read anymore. He surely can't hold down a job.

Great system!!!

phatmonky

Why should I need to know you to disagree with you? I am completely calm.

When one of those sports starts to become a drain on resources for others, as car wrecks do, then yes, they will need to be regulated.
Half of what you mentioned IS already regulated to avoid this very reason.


The obvious conclusion in "how one chooses to raise their kids. " would be that there is WITHOUT a doubt a need to regulate such things. Or do you suggest those recent Toronto parents, who caged their children in the closer wearing diapers (one of which was 15) should be allowed to parent because that's their choice?

phatmonky

What does your brother's recreational use of drugs have to do with the system? If was only by the system that your parents were able to turn to the police (part of the system) to help, since they couldn't handle it alone.

Ivan Seeking

The point is that the money spent on jails and "drug czars" and interdiction would be better spent offering help while it is not too late. My parents weren't about to turn him into the police and ruin his life beyond doubt…there was always hope. Only later was he finally arrested. The thing that angers me is that we had plenty of money to lock him up, but none to help him when it counted...before his life was ruined. If this hadn’t been a criminal matter, my parents would have sought any help they could get. Since it was criminal, they were afraid to do anything...and the non-criminal options were $3000-$5000 per month; money they simply didn't have. I think many parents are caught in this trap. The incarceration system is no place for the medically ill.

This country now imprisons a greater percentage of its population than any other country [I am quite sure that this is true now...I know I have heard this on the all knowing TV…I will check a little later]. I think it is 1:4 black men that will do time. I don't remember the stats for other races, but this speaks greatly of the poverty and hopelessness found in the inner cities; which the present system does nothing to improve.

I see only two ways to break the cycle: Either burn the constitution and declare this a military state, or give up the failed approach, just as with the attempted prohibition on alcohol, and address the core of the problem. Also, we must recognize that drug use has always been a part of human behavior. No matter what we do, we can’t stop all of it. Also, more and more now evidence suggests that we have genetic markers for addiction. We may find ways to reverse this behavior. Presently it appears that we may be locking people up for their inherited genes. Perhaps people like my brother really can't help themselves. After many painful years of failed attempts to help him, this is the conclusion that I have reached. He just can't help it. Then after a point, once enough damage is done, I am convinced that no help is possible.

I think he has really quit now but who knows? Besides, the damage is done. I also suspect that he has turned to alcohol to replace the meth.

Ivan Seeking

Not mentioned but implicit in my argument is the large percentage of prisoners being held for drug crimes.

Ivan Seeking

Can you explain what you mean here by already regulated? Also, as for a drain on the system, did you see the large military chopper go down on Mt. Hood last year while rescuing some climbers? I would call that a drain on the system. Next, what is the cost of a knee surgery, for example? My wife will tell you of the load created at hospitals by what I call the klutz curve - the increased patient load as the weather improves; until all of the klutzes are injured and out of commission. Most of these injuries involve popular sporting activities. I pay for this through my insurance.

This is a fine line. Obviously we need laws to protect children from abusive parents, however by the popular logic we are close to government approved parenting. For example, prescribed diets for children. I suspect one could successfully prosecute many parents now for neglect...based on popular diets. Also, when in my early teens I remember my dad letting me have a little bourbon in my eggnog once a year at Christmas. Now he could be arrested for this in some states. I just don't see this as the government's business. This all contributes to the load on the justice system.

Integral

I am with you Ivan! We need to return to the concepts of personal freedoms and away from the ever encroaching police state. Drug laws would be a great place to start.

Do you really believe that you can legislate parenting skills? Are you going to tell me the state system can do a better job? I do not think we will ever be able to stop demented people from behaving in a demented fashion. Laws will not stop such behavior, obviously, because it is already against the law. The idea that you can fix things by throwing more laws at the problem is ludicrous.

Perhaps we should just lock up everyone, then the state can be sure that no will do anything not legislated.

I would like to see a time limit of, say, 5yrs on all laws. That way the legislature would be so busy keeping the existing laws in place that they would have no time to pass new ones.

Ivan Seeking

...and their salaries are determined by the voters. [:D]

Ivan Seeking

http://members.fortunecity.com/multi19/world.htm#list

World Prison Population Rates.
In descending order.

Rates are calculated for the total number of
prisoners in penal institutions, including pre-trial
detainees.

Incarceration rates of 205 independent
countries and dependent territories. Use "find" in
the edit menu to locate one here.

Order of info. Left to right. More notes at end of list.

- Incarceration RATE per 100,000 population.
- Independent nation or dependent territory.
- Prison population total (total inmates).
- Date (day/month/year).
- National population. (m = million).
- Notes and exceptions. (i.e. sentenced prisoners only).
- * (Use free Adobe Reader to see more notes in pdf file):
- http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf
- c (means the inmate total and rate are estimates).


For comparison purposes the 2 U.S. states with the
highest rates (Texas and Louisiana) are in the list:
1014 Texas 1999 (governor George W. Bush)
1013 Louisiana 2001

_966 Texas 2001
_686 USA 1,962,220 31/12/01 286.0m

_664 Cayman Islands (UK) 243 9/10/02 36,600
_638 Russian Federation 919,330 1/9/02 144.0m
_554 Belarus 56,000 5/01 10.1m
_522 Kazakhstan 84,000 30/4/01 16.1m
_489 Turkmenistan c.22,000 10/00 4.5m c
_459 Belize 1,097 30/6/99 239,000
_447 Bermuda (UK) 286 29/12/99 64,000
_437 Suriname 1,933 30/6/99 442,000
_420 Dominica 298 30/6/99 71,000
_416 Bahamas 1,280 10/02 308,000
_414 Maldive Islands 1,098 * /96 265,000 * (sentenced only)
_406 Ukraine 198,885 1/9/01 49.0m
_404 South Africa 176,893 14/6/02 43.8m
_402 Virgin Islands (US) 494 31/12/01 123,000
_390 Kyrgyzstan 19,500 3/02 5.0m
_381 Botswana 6,102 27/6/02 1.6m
_371 Guam (US) 585 31/12/01 157,600
_368 Puerto Rico (US) 15,105 15/5/02 4.1m
_364 Netherlands Antilles 780 11/98 214,000
_362 Swaziland 3,400 8/02 938,000
_361 Latvia 8,486 14/10/02 2.35m
_359 Singapore 14,704 * mid-01 4.1m *
_351 Trinidad & Tobago 4,794 30/6/99 1.365m
_342 Thailand 217,697 mid-01 63.6m
_338 St Kitts & Nevis 135 30/6/99 40,000
_337 Estonia 4,723 1/11/01 1.4m
_333 Grenada 297 20/6/02 89,200
_317 Barbados 850 22/2/02 268,000
_303 Lithuania 11,216 1/11/01 3.7m
_297 Cuba c.33,000 /97 11.1m c
_290 Azerbaijan 23,504 31/12/00 8.1m
_287 Moldova 10,633 * 1/1/02 3.7m *
_286 Panama 8,290 31/12/00 2.9m
_278 Antigua & Barbuda 186 2/98 67,000
_274 French Guiana/Guyane (France) 532 1/5/02 194,000
_270 St Vincent & Grenadines 302 17/10/01 112,000
_267 Namibia 4,814 31/12/01 1.8m
_257 Uzbekistan 65,000 3/02 25.3m
_256 Mongolia 6,656 * mid-01 2.6m *(sentenced only)
_253 Tunisia 23,165 31/12/96 9.15m
_250 United Arab Emirates c.6,000 12/98 2.4m c
_250 Taiwan 56,225 11/01 22.5m
_243 St Lucia 365 30/6/99 150,000
_237 Aruba (Netherlands) 223 11/98 94,000
_231 American Samoa (US) 155 31/12/01 67,000
_230 Romania 51,528 1/6/02 22.4m
_230 Lebanon 8,285 1/02 3.6m
_229 Iran 163,526 4/02 71.4m
_229 Costa Rica 8,526 6/99 3.72m
_215 Virgin Islands (UK) 43 19/8/99 20,000
_213 Poland 82,173 24/4/02 38.63m
_212 Armenia 7,428 1/1/01 3.5m
_207 Seychelles 157 27/10/99 76,000
_205 Chile 31,600 1/02 15.4m
_203 Mauritius 2,438 mid-02 1.2m
_196 Georgia 7,688 1/1/02 3.9m
_194 Macau (China) 855 mid-01 440,000
_191 Morocco 54,288 /00 28.4m
_188 Czech Republic 19,320 31/12/01 10.25m
_185 Cape Verde 775 30/6/99 418,000
_179 Hungary 17,890 9/5/02 10.0m
_178 Dominican Republic 15,340 2/01 8.6m
_175 Tajikistan c.11,000 5/01 6.3m c
_175 Hong Kong (China) 12,238 30/9/01 7.0m
_175 Guyana 1,507 6/7/01 861,000
_173 Martinique (France) 666 1/5/02 386,000
_172 Honduras 10,869 6/99 6.32m
_170 Jamaica 4,288 30/6/99 2.5m
_165 Cook Islands (NZ) 33 mid-01 20,000
_163 Zimbabwe c.21,000 mid-02 12.9m c
_157 New Zealand 5,980 29/6/01 3.8m
_156 Mexico 154,765 30/6/00 98.9m
_156 Jersey (UK) 136 14/10/02 87,200
_155 Bahrain 911 31/12/97 589,000
_153 Israel 9,421 1/00 6.15m
_153 Colombia 57,068 31/5/99 37.28m
_146 Guernsey (UK) 88 9/10/02 60,100
_143 Nicaragua 7,198 30/6/99 5.02m
_143 Lesotho 3,000 mid-02 2.1m
_141 Réunion (France) 1,038 1/5/02 736,000
_139 United Kingdom – England & Wales 72,669 25/10/02 52.43m
_139 Slovakia 7,509 1/9/01 5.4m
_139 New Caledonia (France) 299 1/5/02 215,000
_139 Guadeloupe (France) 599 1/5/02 432,000
_137 Northern Mariana Islands (US) 102 31/12/01 74,600
_134 Fiji 1,102 mid-01 823,000
_133 Korea (Republic of) 62,732 mid-01 47.1m
_133 Burundi 8,647 mid-02 6.5m
_133 Brazil 233,859 12/01 175.0m
_132 Cameroon 20,000 mid-02 15.2m
_131 Portugal 13,384 15/2/02 10.25m
_131 Greenland (Denmark) 74 /00 56,300
_130 Madagascar 20,109 31/7/99 15.5m
_127 Libya c.6,750 /98 5.3m c
_126 Scotland (UK) 6,417 25/10/02 5.08m
_126 Spain 50,656 31/5/02 40.2m
_124 Zambia 13,173 26/6/02 10.6m
_123 Uruguay 4,012 28/11/99 3.26m
_122 Tanzania 44,063 10/6/02 36.0m
_121 Malaysia 27,299 mid-01 22.6m
_121 Isle of Man (UK) 92 25/10/02 76,300
_121 Egypt c.80,000 /98 66.0m c
_120 Brunei Darussalam 401 mid-01 335,000
_118 Myanmar (Burma) 53,195 31/12/93 45.0m
_116 Australia 22,458 30/6/01 19.3m
_115 Sudan 32,000 /97 27.9m
_114 Bulgaria 9,283 1/9/01 8.13m
_113 Kenya 35,278 mid-02 31.3m
_111 French Polynesia (France) 265 1/5/02 239,000
_111 China 1,428,126 * mid-01 1,285.0m *(sentenced only)
_111 Algeria 34,243 31/12/01 30.8m
_110 Saudi Arabia 23,720 /00 21.6m
_110 Central African Rep. 4,168 /01 3.8m
_109 Tonga 113 6/02 104,000
_109 El Salvador 6,914 31/12/99 6.35m
_107 Peru 27,452 30/6/99 25.62m
_107 Jordan 5,448 2/02 5.1m
_107 Argentina 38,604 30/6/99 36.23m
_104 Yugoslavia – Montenegro 710 25/4/02 680,000
_102 Kuwait 1,735 /97 1.7m
_102 Canada 31,624 mid-01 31.0m
_102 Bolivia 8,315 6/99 8.14m
_101 Samoa 176 mid-98 174,000
_100 Sri Lanka 19,085 mid-01 19.1m
__96 Germany 78,707 30/11/00 82.19m
__95 Qatar 570 /00 599,000
__95 Italy * 55,136 1/9/01 57.95m *
__94 Philippines 70,383 /99 74.5m
__94 Mayotte (France) 123 1/9/98 131,300
__93 Turkey 61,336 1/9/01 66.0m
__93 Syria 14,000 /97 15.0m
__93 Netherlands 14,968 1/9/01 16.05m
__91 Uganda c.21,900 5/02 24.0m c
__90 Albania 3,053 11/01 3.4m
__86 Ireland 3,378 10/4/02 3.92m
__85 France 50,714 * 1/5/02 59.4m *
__85 Belgium 8,764 1/9/01 10.28m
__85 Austria 6,915 1/9/01 8.13m
__83 Yemen 14,000 * /98 16.9m * (government prisons only)
__81 Oman 2,020 /00 2.5m
__81 Benin 4,961 30/9/00 6.1m
__80 Luxembourg 357 1/9/01 444,000
__79 Sao Tome e Principe 130 4/02 165,000
__79 Greece 8,343 1/9/01 10.6m
__76 Malawi 8,769 mid-02 11.6m
__75 Paraguay 4,088 /99 5.48m
__75 Liechtenstein 24 30/6/99 32,000
__74 Kiribati 63 mid-01 85,000
__72 Andorra 48 1/9/01 66,300
__71 Vietnam 55,000 mid-98 77.6m
__71 Guatemala 8,460 9/99 11.89m
__70 Macedonia (F Yug Rep) 1,413 1/9/01 2.02m
__69 Switzerland 4,985 4/9/02 7.23m
__69 Ecuador 8,520 30/6/99 12.41m
__68 Sweden 6,089 1/10/01 8.9m
__67 Papua New Guinea 3,296 mid-01 4.9m
__67 Malta 257 1/9/01 384,000
__67 Bosnia & Herzegovina – Republika Srpska 876 31/5/02 1.3m
__64 Côte d’Ivoire 10,355 8/3/02 16.3m
__62 Venezuela 15,107 /00 24.2m
__62 Northern Ireland (UK) 1,058 28/10/02 1.72m
__62 Gibraltar (UK) 19 13/9/01 30,800
__61 Djibouti 384 16/12/99 629,000
__59 Norway 2,666 1/9/01 4.5m
__59 Ghana 11,624 mid-02 19.7m
__59 Finland 3,040 1/9/01 5.19m
__59 Denmark 3,150 1/9/01 5.36m
__59 Croatia 2,584 31/12/01 4.38m
__56 Yugoslavia – Serbia 5,566 6/01 10.0m
__56 Tuvalu 6 mid-00 10,800
__56 Slovenia 1,120 1/9/02 2.0m
__56 Cyprus 369 * 1/9/01 661,000 *
__55 Senegal 5,360 9/02 9.7m
__55 Bosnia & Herzegovina – Federation 1,372 31/7/02 2.5m
__54 Niger c.6,000 mid-02 11.2m c
__54 Bangladesh c.70,000 3/01 129.2m c
__53 Haiti 4,152 30/6/99 7.8m
__51 Pakistan 78,938 31/12/99 154.4m
__50 Mozambique 8,812 31/12/99 17.6m
__50 Mauritania 1,354 mid-02 2.7m
__48 Japan 61,242 mid-01 127.3m
__48 Chad 3,883 mid-02 8.1m
__46 Togo 2,043 6/11/98 4.4m
__46 Cambodia 6,179 mid-01 13.4m
__44 Marshall Islands 23 /94 52,000
__39 Monaco 13 10/98 33,000
__38 Iceland 110 1/9/01 286,000
__38 Congo (Brazzaville) 918 /93 2.4m
__37 Guinea (Conakry) 3,070 mid-02 8.3m
__37 Angola 4,975 mid-02 13.5m
__35 Mali 4040 2/02 11.7m
__34 Nigeria 39,368 3/02 116.9m
__34 Micronesia, Fed States of 39 /97 114,000
__34 Gambia 450 9/02 1.34m
__31 Solomon Islands 134 mid-99 430,000
__30 Comoros c.200 /98 658,000 c
__29 Indonesia 62,886 mid-01 214.8m
__28 India 281,380 /99 998.1m
__27 Yugoslavia – Kosovo 521 5/01 1.9m
__25 Vanuatu 46 mid-99 183,000
__25 Nepal 5,878 /99 23.4m
__24 Burkina Faso 2,800 9/02 11.9m
__21 Faeroe Islands (Denmark) 9 /00 43,000
____ Rwanda * mid-02 7.9m *

phatmonky

1>So your answer to this existing drain, is to remove regulations that will cause an even LARGER drain?

2>Yes it is a fine line, and that's why I wanted to give you a chance to expand on it before I responded.
Look, I'm all for less government intervention, particularly at the federal level. But, your first post was so general as too encompass many needed services and laws to protect people.

As for the drug laws. There should be a change in the system. Start with legalizing, regulating, and taxing marijuana. Put it in every store like alcohol, and the underground crime associated with it will go away as well. I'm not so quick to suggest we legalize coke, many of the hallucinegens, or recreational use of prescription pills.

jimmy p

just do what me n andy suggested... all the REALLY bad criminals such as rapists, paedophiles, serial killers etc should be sent to the Sun.

Mr. Robin Parsons

So far the principal point is about the drug laws as to reduce prison populations, O.K. then the rest of this...ie; below

Well it is a (very) good example of what goes wrong in a free society, but is it not more "the exception then the rule" well, yes and no, cause it is not what we condone as activity, not whats 'right' in society, but we recognize that to attempt to control it is also wrong, we must, to preserve freedom (or the appearance thereof) allow/permit people the rights of Freedom of Choice, and we must go in and assist (and help!) when we see that there is the abuse of another by the expression (over-expression) of individual (or collective, two+ people) freedom!

We find out you hurt your children, as a society, we come take them away from you...cause you told us why to...otherwise, we stand ever vigilant, guarding freedom.