on day x of creation->

*deda*

Did God made the Devil too?
Why, the hell, did he do that for?

Dissident Dan

The devil is supposedly a rebellious angel who started a war against god, with some of the other angels joining on his side.

Sikz

His question still stands... Why make an angel that will rebel? (This thread is doomed to be locked :P)

one_raven

<---- Not a Christian.

However, the typical Christian argument (one of the few Christian Apologist arguments that fly with me) is that God created all beings with free will.

Lucifer was free to rebel if that was his will.

However, the Agnostic in me would point out...

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn."

Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light.

In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."

I wish I could remember where I got that from.
I would like to give credit to the author.
However, if you really want to know, you can do an exact phrase search on yahoo, and I am sure you will be able to find it on the net without too much trouble.

Sikz

Indeed. However:

An omnipotent God has power over everything.

Therefore an omnipotent God had to create everything:

If something existed without God creating it (telling it that it could exist), God's approval was not required in order for it to exist and therefore he did not have power over its creation. Therefore he would not have power over everything- so any omnipotent God had to create everything.

This includes logical constraints; if a God is confined by ANY rules whatsoever, including truth/falsehood, the laws of mathematics, etc, that God must operate under those rules. If the God is subordinate to the rules then that God must not be omnipotent.

Here we run across innumerable paradoxes (EG How could God create the act of creating?), but we shall skim over them for now.

Because of this, God had to create the concept of free will- he could have created it where every decision was good and it would still be free will. This would not be evil, because God has power over the definitions of good and evil.

God had to create the concepts of good and evil- why not create good and leave evil out, so any decision would be good? Some would argue duality is necessary, but God had to create duality and necessity as well.

So the free will argument holds no real ground- it is meaningful only if God is subject to the laws of reality, which he cannot be if he is omnipotent. (For the reason of the vast number of paradoxes involved in this argument that we skimmed over, and based on various other ideas, I find any omnipotent being an impossibility- but that is beside the point).

one_raven

I personally don't believe in "good" and "evil", but leaving that aside...

Who said God was "good"?
Who said that rebellion (and Lucifer, for that matter) was bad?

Anyway...
My view is that if there is a God, he would be closest to the Diest version.
He created all, set the rules, put the ball in play, then backed off to let it do what it's going to do.

He would still be omnipotent.

The ability to control all does not imply the necessity or obligation to do so.
I could invent a board game.
I would know all the rules.
I would know how to cheat.
I would choose to abide by the rules I created.
The game does not have power over me, I chose to follow the constraints I invented.

Sikz

Yes, but free will is part of the game. We are PIECES of the game, so we would be BOUND by the rules- since we can't will ourselves more powerful than God, obviously there are bounds. Meaning our choices must be monitored, meaning they are censored so God allows or disallows every thought and action.

one_raven

Originally posted by Sikz
Meaning our choices must be monitored, meaning they are censored so God allows or disallows every thought and action.

Not at all.
The rules are imbedded into the game already.
The laws of physics.
There are no other unbreakable rules.

We can't break them, not because God is watching and will squash us with his thumb if we do, like the Tower of Babel or something.
We can't break them simply because they are integral to the design of the system.

I can kill you right now.
If God were "good" and enforced Biblical morality, I wouldn't be able to do that.
Since God created me with free will, I have the choice to kill you.
He CAN do something about it, but he doesn't because he is abiding by the rules of non-interference that he made for himself.

However, I can't fly to the moon right now under the power of the magic wings I tuck under my shirt while I am at work.
Not because God is watching me, but because it is a rule built into the game.

Allowing "evil" to happen to people does not make God malevolent himself.
He does not perpetrate the evil.
Abstention of interference does not imply malevolence.
Especially if "Heaven" exists.
The petty little woes that humans suffer on earth are but a speck of sand in eternity.
That is like saying if you mother cared about you she wouldn't let you get a hangnail.

Besides, the VAST majority of suffering humans go through is caused by other humans.
Maybe he is watching and saying, "You deserve it you shallow, self-absorbed, arrogant little fux!"

Who's to say?
The point, however (believe it or not, I do have a point buried in here somewhere), is that someone could very well be omnipotent, but not interfere.
If he IS omnipotent, he has the power to turn his back if he wishes.

Sikz

Isn't God, by engaging in any action, not engaging in another? And seeing as he isn't engaging in another he must be bound by reality.

Doesn't God exist or not exist? Either he doesn't exist, or he does. If he does he is bound by existence.

God can do anything- therefore he can create a rule by which he is bound. But then he is bound by a rule...

God created all concepts. How can you create the concept of creating before it exists?

How can God know that he is omniscient? What if something else created God and purposely MADE HIM THINK he was omniscient?

Since free will operates under the rules of the "game", and God created the rules of the game, God still had to create every decision we make. How can you jump if there's no such thing as jumping?

What motivation would an allpowerful and allknowing God have to create a universe? He already knows everything that will happen and can already do whatever he wants. Needs and desires indicate a lack- how can God be lacking something, since anything he creates must necessarily come from himself?

How can there be a beginning to time anyway? Whatever units we use to measure back in time, the last "instant" can always be divided into subinstants and get us farther and farther back.

If there was no beginning to time, there was an infinite wait before the creation of the world... That's odd, wouldn't you say?

These are general arguments against the existence of any omnipotent/omniscient being... There are infinitely more against specific religions' Gods which I shan't go into since they are off the topic of the philosophical discussion (and everyone already knows them anyway). So what of these?

Shahil

Hindus don't believe in the devil.

If you don't like the devil - become a hindu!!!

[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]

Oh and hindu girls are very nice looking!!!

[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]

M. Gaspar

Perhaps the "problem" is viewing "God" as an the Great Outsider who "created the Universe" ...rather than viewing the Universe Itself as an eternal Entity of energy whose "bodily functions" comprise "the Game".

scott

God=omnicient does not = free will:

Let's take a question like, "Are you going to hell?" Assuming there is a definite answer, i.e. either you are, or you aren't, that means that there will eventually be a factual truth associated with the question. You either went to hell or you didn't. If God is omnicient, he already knows the answer to the question. If he knows the answer to the question, then that means there ISan answer to the question, and therefore your fate has already been decided. You could argue that God could change his mind, but he already knew he was going to do that, and so your ultimate fate is still known. The consequence of this is that you have no free will. Your fate is already decided. If, on the other hand, you do have free will, and the question of your going to hell is not known yet by God, then he is not omnicient.

When God created everything, he already knew every single thing that was ever going to happen. He was the architect of every single act. He knew perfectly well that Satan would turn evil, men would do evil, etc ...

Makes me wonder why its so important for me to believe and be "born again" and all of that stuff, since God has already made up his mind about me anyway and there is nothing I can do about it.

M. Gaspar

Originally posted by scott
God=omnicient does not = free will:

Let's take a question like, "Are you going to hell?" Assuming there is a definite answer, i.e. either you are, or you aren't, that means that there will eventually be a factual truth associated with the question. You either went to hell or you didn't. If God is omnicient, he already knows the answer to the question. If he knows the answer to the question, then that means there ISan answer to the question, and therefore your fate has already been decided. You could argue that God could change his mind, but he already knew he was going to do that, and so your ultimate fate is still known. The consequence of this is that you have no free will. Your fate is already decided. If, on the other hand, you do have free will, and the question of your going to hell is not known yet by God, then he is not omnicient.

When God created everything, he already knew every single thing that was ever going to happen. He was the architect of every single act. He knew perfectly well that Satan would turn evil, men would do evil, etc ...

Makes me wonder why its so important for me to believe and be "born again" and all of that stuff, since God has already made up his mind about me anyway and there is nothing I can do about it.

And THAT's the "problem" with the paradigm that has "God" as "omnicient". Instead, might not the Universe Itself be an evolving Entity that DOESN'T KNOW what's going to happen next. What, in fact, would be the POINT -- or even ENJOYMENT -- of a highly intelligent Being knowing everything in advance and just watching It's little "creations" walking through their parts? It's a flawed (and primitive) paradigm -- IMO -- that presents "God" as the Great Outsider with a "Plan"!

In MY paradigm, the Universe Itself is evolving over infinite incarnations twixt one Big Bang through a Big Crunch to next Big Bang, at infinitum. At each Big Bang, It SEEMINGLY "blows apart" ...except Everything is STILL CONNECTED via "forces". As to It's "consciousness"? ...Its Mind "blows apart" as well, then goes through the process of "coming together" via "forces" ...much like the "physical plane". IOW, the Universe "looses It's marbles" "in the beginning" when IT is "born again"!

Thus, free will is in play and everybody -- including the Universe -- is happy. [a)]

scott

which makes you wonder this: if we are part of the universe, (and we certainly are) and we are self aware, and we are aware of the universe, does that mean the universe is aware of itself, and intelligent?

selfAdjoint

Sort of answered your own question, didn't you?

Canute

Originally posted by scott
which makes you wonder this: if we are part of the universe, (and we certainly are) and we are self aware, and we are aware of the universe, does that mean the universe is aware of itself, and intelligent?

Good point - one that gets forgotten. If science is right then the physical universe can self-reference itself, can know itself. How this idea makes sense I have no idea at all.

ewoodlief

Originally posted by scott
which makes you wonder this: if we are part of the universe, (and we certainly are) and we are self aware, and we are aware of the universe, does that mean the universe is aware of itself, and intelligent?

Yes, if all parts of the universe, other than us, don't lack self-awareness. "We" are only one part of the universe. So if any one part exists that is not self-aware, the universe (as a whole) is not aware of itself. If, in fact, "we" are self-aware, then the universe is either partly or wholly self-aware. Therefore, the answer is only contingent upon the awareness of the remaining parts.

Any suggestions on how to, if possible, determine awareness in, say, inanimate objects? Maybe we should start by defining awareness itself?

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deda	on day x of creation-> Tweet Did God made the Devil too? Why, the hell, did he do that for?

Dissident Dan	The devil is supposedly a rebellious angel who started a war against god, with some of the other angels joining on his side.

Sikz	His question still stands... Why make an angel that will rebel? (This thread is doomed to be locked :P)

Shahil	Hindus don't believe in the devil. If you don't like the devil - become a hindu!!! [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] Oh and hindu girls are very nice looking!!! [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]

M. Gaspar	Perhaps the "problem" is viewing "God" as an the Great Outsider who "created the Universe" ...rather than viewing the Universe Itself as an eternal Entity of energy whose "bodily functions" comprise "the Game".

scott	which makes you wonder this: if we are part of the universe, (and we certainly are) and we are self aware, and we are aware of the universe, does that mean the universe is aware of itself, and intelligent?

selfAdjoint Recognitions: Gold Member Staff Emeritus	Sort of answered your own question, didn't you?