UFOs don't exist.

Julian Solos

Predictability: Does the Flap of a Butterfly's Wings in Brazil set off a Tornado in Texas?

Perhaps, the report of Mr. Keneth Arnold's June 24, 1947 sighting was the Flap of a Butterfly's Wings which set off the flying saucer phenomenon.

Or more precisely, misquotation/misinterpretation of the sighting was the Flap of a Butterfly's Wings

The initial report was likely to have been misquoted/misinterpreted.

Marty Kottmeyer's article The Saucer Error explains how the very idea of a "flying saucer" is based upon a misunderstanding of what Arnold said he saw. But since people thought that Arnold had said he'd seen a saucer, then by golly, saucers were what they reported seeing! (Article excerpted from The REALL News, Volume 1 No. 4.)

From: The First "Flying Saucer" Sighting - Kenneth Arnold Mt. Rainier, Washington - June 24, 1947

Is this scary or silly or what

zoobyshoe

Your thread title should be: Flying Saucers Don't Exist.
Arnold did see U.F.O.s.

LURCH

I find the artical itself slightly suspect. In the picture provided, the caption reads "This is a photo of a model of the strange disks Arnold said he saw over the Cascades June 1947".

So they're saying that Arnold said he saw "disks". But the rest of the artical reads that Arnold never said he saw disks. Pretty vague reporting.

zoobyshoe

Originally posted by LURCH
Pretty vague reporting.

This is the point, apparently. The notions of saucers came from Arnold's description of the way they moved, like saucers skipping over water, not from the shape he saw.

Ivan Seeking

This is all well known to the UFO crowd.

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/arnolddir.htm

My take has always been that at twenty to twenty five miles, Arnold was guessing at the shape...the key feature really being that he saw no tail. From the official report:

The sky and air was clear as crystal. I hadn't flown more than two or three minutes on my course when a bright flash reflected on my airplane. It startled me as I thought I was too close to some other aircraft. I looked every place in the sky and couldn't find where the reflection had come from until I looked to the left and the north of Mt. Rainier where I observed a chain of nine peculiar looking aircraft flying from north to south at approximately 9,500 foot elevation and going, seemingly, in a definite direction of about 170 degrees.

They were approaching Mt. Rainier very rapidly, and I merely assumed they were jet planes. Anyhow, I discovered that this was where the reflection had come from, as two or three of them every few seconds would dip or change their course slightly, just enough for the sun to strike them at an angle that reflected brightly on my plane.

These objects being quite far away, I was unable for a few seconds to make out their shape or their formation. Very shortly they approached Mt. Rainier, and I observed their outline against the snow quite plainly.

I thought it was very peculiar that I couldn't find their tails but assumed they were some type of jet plane. I was determined to clock their speed, as I had two definite points I could clock them by; the air was so clear that it was very easy to see objects and determine their approximate shape and size at almost fifty miles that day.

I remember distinctly that my sweep second hand on my eight day clock, which is located on my instrument panel, read one minute to 3 P.M. as the first object of this formation passed the southern edge of Mt. Rainier. I watched these objects with great interest as I had never before observed...

...What kept bothering me as I watched them flip and flash in the sun right along their path was the fact that I couldn't make out any tail on them, and I am sure that any pilot would justify more than a second look at such a plane.

I observed them quite plainly, and I estimate my distance from them, which was almost at right angles, to be between twenty to twenty-five miles. I knew they must be very large to observe their shape at that distance, even on as clear a day as it was that Tuesday, In fact I compared a zeus fastener or cowling tool I had in my pocket with them - holding it up on them and holding it up on the DC-4 - that I could observe at quite a distance to my left, and they seemed smaller than the DC-4; but, I should judge their span would have been as wide as the furtherest engines on each side of the fuselage of the DC-4.

The more I observed these objects the more upset I became, as I am accustomed and familiar with most all objects flying whether I am close to the ground or at higher altitudes

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/arnoldka.htm

Note also that his drawings in the official report are a far cry from the photo shown.

Julian Solos

Thanks for the link, Ivan.

You wrote: "Note also that his drawings in the official report are a far cry from the photo shown."

The caption says the photo is from Kenneth's 1952 book. Is it possible that he was corrupted by the interest following his first report and got carried away in fabricating the story about his sighting?

Anyway, debunkers.com may need to be debunked. I don't know.

Shahil

Bit off topic

I do know, however, that when the Butterfly flapped it's wings in China (1949) it created a hurricane in Cuba (1959).

I should shut up now!!!

bye

LURCH

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
This is the point, apparently. The notions of saucers came from Arnold's description of the way they moved, like saucers skipping over water, not from the shape he saw.

Yet according to the artical, he said he saw "disks", disks that moved like saucers.

Ivan Seeking

Originally posted by Julian Solos
Is it possible that he was corrupted by the interest following his first report and got carried away in fabricating the story about his sighting?

I suspect this happens a lot even with initially credible witnesses. Also, maybe fabricating is not the right word...embellishing? I think this adds tremendously to the confusion around this subject. We find truths surrounded by exaggerations and/or unintentional misinformation. Also, when pressed for details, people will unintentionally create them based on personal biases, where none may have actually been observed. For example, Arnold was a pilot so in his mind he made flying wings out of the UFOs.

zoobyshoe

Originally posted by LURCH
Yet according to the artical, he said he saw "disks", disks that moved like saucers.

I see what you mean. In his own account he calls them "saucer-like discs" The drawings he himself made are more "saucerlike", but not actually round discs. So the "debunking" article is flawed in saying Arnold never actually reported "saucers".

Ivan Seeking

Chalk up one for the UFO nuts. [:D]

zoobyshoe

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Chalk up one for the UFO nuts. [:D]

So, what's the score? Skeptics: 10,000 :: UFO nuts: 1? Clearly the start of an impressive turnaround for the nuts!

Ivan Seeking

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
So, what's the score? Skeptics: 10,000 :: UFO nuts: 1? Clearly the start of an impressive turnaround for the nuts!

Only if one picks the easy targets...a favorite trick of the debunkers!

Of course in this case it would seem that they chose to lie.

Julian Solos

A Sketch from Kenneth Arnold's 1947 report:

[From: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/arnoldka.htm]

A photo from circa 1952?

[From: http://www.debunker.com/arnold.html]

Julian Solos

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
So, what's the score? Skeptics: 10,000 :: UFO nuts: 1? Clearly the start of an impressive turnaround for the nuts!

"Resistance is futile."

mouseonmoon

quote
James Easton has written some extremely interesting material suggesting that what Arnold actually saw was a flock of American White Pelicans, the largest birds in North America.
====
afriad i couldn't find any of the "extremely interesting material"--saw photo's of
"Pelicans"--and they don't look anything like UFOs!

have read 'explanation' countering Arnold's 'miscalculations' as to 'speed' and distance of the 'objects' ---actually a fair argument IMO--(not sure where to find it)

But--re "flying saucers"--a rose is a rose---call it what you want--'flying discs' were being reported before Arnold's sighting--and these were 'military sightings', not bird-watchers...
on 2/28/47 at Lake Meade,NV (and again 6/28 an F-51 pilot saw formation of circular objects-edit at Lake Meade); a number of these discs 'formations' were reported in Canada.....it's interesting to think about,'why did Arnold's sighting get such widespread attention?'--because the military sightings weren't being reported, and Arnold is first public 'credible witness'?

anyway, Capt. Ruppelt coined the "unidentified flying object=UFO" to escape all the 'baggage'

Major Keyhoe out right screams 'Flying saucers are here'-'let's call a spade a spade' and end the coverup......

zoobyshoe

Originally posted by Julian Solos
"Resistance is futile."

If all aliens were reported to look like 7 of 9 I think every skeptic would hang up an "I Want To Believe" poster.

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zoobyshoe	Your thread title should be: Flying Saucers Don't Exist. Arnold did see U.F.O.s.

LURCH Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor	I find the artical itself slightly suspect. In the picture provided, the caption reads "This is a photo of a model of the strange disks Arnold said he saw over the Cascades June 1947". So they're saying that Arnold said he saw "disks". But the rest of the artical reads that Arnold never said he saw disks. Pretty vague reporting.

Julian Solos	Thanks for the link, Ivan. You wrote: "Note also that his drawings in the official report are a far cry from the photo shown." The caption says the photo is from Kenneth's 1952 book. Is it possible that he was corrupted by the interest following his first report and got carried away in fabricating the story about his sighting? Anyway, debunkers.com may need to be debunked. I don't know.

Shahil	Bit off topic I do know, however, that when the Butterfly flapped it's wings in China (1949) it created a hurricane in Cuba (1959). I should shut up now!!! bye

Ivan Seeking Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor Staff Emeritus	Chalk up one for the UFO nuts. [:D]