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Ex-atheist describes near-death experience

by Ivan Seeking
Tags: describes, exatheist, experience, neardeath
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Ivan Seeking
#1
Feb2-04, 04:03 PM
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.... Overwhelmed with hopelessness, he told them he would go no farther and that they were liars. He could feel their breath on him as they shouted and snarled insults.
Then they began to push and shove him about, and he began to fight back. A wild frenzy of taunting, screaming and hitting ensued. As he swung and kicked at them, they bit him.
Even though he couldn't see anything in the darkness, he was aware there were dozens or hundreds of them all around and over him and that his attempts to fight back only provoked greater merriment.
They began to tear off pieces of his flesh, and he realized that he was being taken apart and eaten alive, methodically, slowly, so that their entertainment would last as long as possible. In that wretched state he lay there in the darkness. [continued]
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily...4/c04rg223.htm
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megashawn
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Feb3-04, 05:53 PM
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Ok, I'm gonna come out of hiding for this one.

First of all, what exactly was his ailment that supposedly caused his death?

What in your stomach can cause you to die? Especially in a hospital?

Based on this, I'd say the dude had a awesome, although fearsome trip from the pain medicine given to him for what I would guess, since there was no description of his illness, a bad pancreas, or maybe a hernia.

Is there any medical documents verifying he was dead, or almost dead?

Seems rather silly to me. Probably another one of these religous pushers who say "Hey, maybe if I say I used to be an atheist people will give me more credit."
Ivan Seeking
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Feb4-04, 12:36 AM
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I was just posting FYI, but I will do a little homework and see if I can find out the specifics. It may take me a few days to get back to this though. If you can find an email address he may well respond. Usually these people are fairly accessible.

He does tell a pretty terrifying story doesn't he?

Thanks for coming out of hiding. Tsunami and I were just wondering about you.

TampaUSA
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Feb4-04, 11:36 AM
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Ex-atheist describes near-death experience

Looking forward to the rest of this one
Ivan Seeking
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Feb6-04, 05:06 PM
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Hey megashawn,
I e-mailed your questions to Rev. Storm and invited him to reply to me by email; or even better to drop in and answer some questions directly. If he does make a showing please understand that he would do so as an invited guest; so be nice.

Edit: Oh yes, his ailment was a "stomach perforation".
Evo
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Feb6-04, 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Edit: Oh yes, his ailment was a "stomach perforation".
Perforated ulcer? I saw (either on The Learning Channel or Discovery, what would we do without them ) a show about the REALLY BAD near death experiences where the person sees Hell, you know, people screaming in agony in a fiery lake, in unspeakable, never ending pain.

Ivan, on the same show they mentioned another source that said that "the tunnel of light" and the "white, glowing entities" that some people see in most NDE's are actually evil and that if you follow them, you "will" end up in hell because they are "tricking you". It's driving me nuts because I can't remember exactly, I seem to remember they said it was some passage from the bible or other similar religious source.

I remember thinking... oh great, now what do I do?
Pergatory
#7
Feb6-04, 06:39 PM
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I can't remember where but I remember reading about a scientific study that found some sort of chemical of the brain that is released upon death that causes euphoria and hallucinations, including a 'light at the end of a tunnel' type effect. Anyone else remember this or have any solid sources for it?
megashawn
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Feb6-04, 06:46 PM
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Seems like I've heard similar. Something about as a person is dieing, and the oxygen is leaving there brain, it can create a tunnel effect. I don't have any sources either, but seems I remember hearing it on a discovery channel show or something similar.
Ivan Seeking
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Feb8-04, 11:58 PM
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No response yet from the good Reverend. In my experience, unless they happen to be out of town, people like this either respond immediately [within a day], or not at all...
Ivan Seeking
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Feb9-04, 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by Evo
I remember thinking... oh great, now what do I do?
JCJCJCJCJCJCJCJCJCJCJCJCJCJCJC...
hypnagogue
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Feb9-04, 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by megashawn
Seems like I've heard similar. Something about as a person is dieing, and the oxygen is leaving there brain, it can create a tunnel effect. I don't have any sources either, but seems I remember hearing it on a discovery channel show or something similar.
That may well be the case, but that is not necessarily an indication that what is experienced does not correspond to some facet of reality.
FZ+
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Feb9-04, 04:10 PM
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Well, it provides an alternative hypothesis, with a good, perhaps better probability. And if the effect alone is sufficient to account for the phenomena as a result of sensory distortion, talking about facets of reality is, perhaps, cramming unneccessary fairies into an already very overcrowded Mini.

I do not believe that many argue seriously, that the messed up world experienced when drunk is a hidden facet of reality?
Pergatory
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Feb9-04, 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by hypnagogue
That may well be the case, but that is not necessarily an indication that what is experienced does not correspond to some facet of reality.
Depends on your definition of 'reality.' If reality is what you can touch, taste, smell, hear, or see, then you're right it's just as real as anything else. However, if you are more strict in terms of the source of that sense being your physical receptors responding to information that they receive, then no it would not be real. In other words, it wouldn't be proven that there isn't an afterlife, but that if there is one, it's inside your head. Who says God doesn't use science?

On a more extreme note, I've considered the possibility that Heaven or Hell is actually a state where time continues to slow in your final moments of life as if it were approaching the event horizon of a black hole, and one's own understanding of whether his life was good or bad is what haunts them through that artificial eternity where they are completely powerless to do or change anything.

P.S. - I also think this emphasizes the pointlessness (and genius) of the debate of whether or not there is a God. It's obvious that no amount of scientific knowledge (short of knowing everything and somehow being able to prove that you know everything) can disprove God. Therefore, assuming God never manifests himself in an observable and measurable fashion, it will never be proven that he does or does not exist. Concurrently, there is no method to determine what you should or should not do to please such a being in the hopes of being rewarded with a pleasant afterlife. Therefore, to alter your actions or beliefs over such a thing is trivial. What's important is not what you do, but why you do it.
hypnagogue
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Feb9-04, 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by FZ+
Well, it provides an alternative hypothesis, with a good, perhaps better probability. And if the effect alone is sufficient to account for the phenomena as a result of sensory distortion, talking about facets of reality is, perhaps, cramming unneccessary fairies into an already very overcrowded Mini.

I do not believe that many argue seriously, that the messed up world experienced when drunk is a hidden facet of reality?
If one says that the conscious experience of a human, under normal conditions, corresponds to some 'facet of reality,' then is one cramming unnecessary fairies into a loaded metaphysical hypothesis? In a sense, yes-- the most skeptical position would hold that one cannot ever be sure that reality actually is in any way as one sees it (deceiving demons and all that). Rather, we come to this conclusion that our perceptions are in fact veridical (corresponding to reality as it actually is) as a matter of convenience and pragmaticism. But there is no way to prove it.

How can one accept the assumption of veridicality without second thought (as one does in everyday life), but then suddenly turn into a stern skeptic when it comes to NDEs and the like? It may appear more pragmatic to simply dismiss NDEs as completely non-veridical, but that does not make the dismissal valid.
enigma
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Feb9-04, 07:35 PM
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Oh come on.

They've reproduced "near-death experiences" in laboratory centrifuges when the patient is subjected to enough 'g' forces to cause most of the oxygen to drain out of the brain.

floating, stepping outside yourself, hallucinations, all are common experiences in approximately half of the people subjected to the tests, IIRC.

Nothing like good-ol' fearmongering to bring the weak-minded back to the flock...
Ivan Seeking
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Feb10-04, 01:01 AM
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Alright enigma that settles it. When I die I'm coming back to haunt you.
hypnagogue
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Feb10-04, 07:49 AM
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I believe William James had something to say about all this.

To plead the organic causation of a religious state of mind, then, in refutation of its claim to possess superior spiritual value, is quite illogical and arbitrary, unless one have already worked out in advance some psycho-physical theory connecting spiritual values in general with determinate sorts of physiological change. Otherwise none of our thoughts and feelings, not even our scientific doctrines, not even our dis-beliefs, could retain any value as revelations of the truth, for every one of them without exception flows from the state of their possessor's body at the time.

It is needless to say that medical materialism draws in point of fact no such sweeping skeptical conclusion. It is sure, just as every simple man is sure, that some states of mind are inwardly superior to others, and reveal to us more truth, and in this it simply makes use of an ordinary spiritual judgment. It has no physiological theory of the production of these its favorite states, by which it may accredit them; and its attempt to discredit the states which it dislikes, by vaguely associating them with nerves and liver, and connecting them with names connoting bodily affliction, is altogether illogical and inconsistent."
This argument is more fully fleshed out at http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...&threadid=9650
russ_watters
#18
Feb10-04, 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by enigma
Oh come on.

They've reproduced "near-death experiences" in laboratory centrifuges when the patient is subjected to enough 'g' forces to cause most of the oxygen to drain out of the brain.

floating, stepping outside yourself, hallucinations, all are common experiences in approximately half of the people subjected to the tests, IIRC.

Nothing like good-ol' fearmongering to bring the weak-minded back to the flock...
Yeah. Fox Moulder's poster: "I want to believe."
I do not believe that many argue seriously, that the messed up world experienced when drunk is a hidden facet of reality?
Some people do say it about drugs though. They really want to believe that they are unlocking another level of consciousness instead of the truth that they are just losing a portion of this one.
If one says that the conscious experience of a human, under normal conditions, corresponds to some 'facet of reality,' then is one cramming unnecessary fairies into a loaded metaphysical hypothesis? In a sense, yes-- the most skeptical position would hold that one cannot ever be sure that reality actually is in any way as one sees it (deceiving demons and all that). Rather, we come to this conclusion that our perceptions are in fact veridical (corresponding to reality as it actually is) as a matter of convenience and pragmaticism. But there is no way to prove it.
I think because there is no way to prove the existence of other realities that it is easier (and more correct) for scientists to attempt to find explanations for phenomenon that fit with the reality we know exists and perfectly reasonable to assume that if an explanation fits it is true. Speculation about other realities is useless and meaningless unless there is evidence they actually exist.


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