Can You Use Simple Substitution for Tricky Integrals?

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    Integration
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of substitution methods in integration, particularly in the context of integrating trigonometric functions. Participants explore whether creative substitutions can simplify complex integrals and share personal experiences related to integration mistakes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests using the substitution u = sin5(x)/5 for the integral ∫cos4(x)dx, arguing that this method could simplify the integration process.
  • Another participant challenges this approach, stating that the derivative of 1/5 sin^5(x) is not cos^4(x) and emphasizes the importance of understanding derivatives and the chain rule in substitution methods.
  • A third participant expresses regret for their earlier mistake in reasoning, acknowledging the simplicity of the error and their feelings of embarrassment.
  • A fourth participant shares a personal anecdote about making a significant mistake during an exam, highlighting the stress of the situation and the eventual resolution of their performance despite the initial error.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the validity of the proposed substitution method. There are competing views regarding the appropriateness of the substitution technique and the understanding of derivatives in relation to integration.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include potential misunderstandings of derivative and integral relationships, as well as the complexity of trigonometric functions in substitution methods. The discussion does not resolve these issues.

Who May Find This Useful

Students and individuals interested in calculus, particularly those grappling with integration techniques and the application of substitution methods in trigonometric integrals.

climbhi
If you had say ∫cos4(x)dx according to my integration table in calc book this would be something nasty. Could you not say let u = sin5(x)/5 therefore du = cos4(x)dx and then ∫du = u = sin5(x)/5 + C. Is there something wrong with this. This technique would work on ∫x2 if you said let u = x3/3 and then did everything else the same except there its not quite so tricky. I guess what I'm asking is if you're good at designing a function that when differentiated would give the funtion in the integral can you use my method there instead of the tables which give this nasty formula: ∫cosn(x)dx = [(cosn-1x)(sinx)]/n + [(n-1)/n]∫cosn-2(x)dx
 
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The problem with what you are trying to say is that your basis is totally false. The derivative of 1/5 sin^5(x) is not cos^4(x), but sin^4(x)cos(x). This is by the chain rule. You should remember that the reason why substitution eists is precisely because not everything can be treated as simply x and certainly not trig functions! I think it would be good for you to review how to do derivatives, and if you're stuck and want to check the answer for an integral, try and derive it first to get back to the original equation you just integrated. This way you're sure it's right, and derivatives are safer to do than integrals usually.
 
[beats self relentelessly on head] Oh man I feel soo stupid, I cannot believe I missed that! I knew it was way to easy that way. I can't even describe how stupid I feel looking over that. Ohh well what can you do?[/end self beating blushing terribly]
 
Don't worry about that, i did much worse in an exam situation:
I was extremely stressed because the exam was simply too long, as i rushed in the last question, i accidentaly derived instead of integrating, in an eletric field question. Just image how ashamed i was when i got my paper back. The teacher thought i was a total idiot, even though he was forced to change his mind later on when my average got back above 90%.
 

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