Fatima: Did 70,000 people witness a miracle?

nismaratwork

...AND it was in the context of an ongoing argument with a secular portion of society. How fortuitous that there was a miracle... probably nothing more impressive than a cloud-break.

GODISMYSHADOW

What do you mean by miracle? To me, it can mean one of two things:

(1) A true miracle: Something positive that happens which completely defies the laws of physics; a scientific impossibility.

(2) A lesser miracle: An extremely unlikely positive occurence, like getting all six numbers right in the Power Ball lottery.

According the great psychologist Carl Jung, UFO's occur in three ways: in dreams, in paintings and as rumors. This is a case where UFO's occur as a rumor.

JaredJames

Number 1 should be defies scientific explanation. In the sense that we can't explain it, not that it's impossible under science altogether - only our current understanding.

Not so sure I'd call number 2 a miracle, winning the lottery is certainly within the odds that it would happen and really not that extraordinary.
Please see post number 66 regarding UFO's. It would appear Carl Jung isn't so great as they most certainly do occur in everyday life - not just dreams, paintings and rumours. The weird black dot I saw floating across the sky earlier was a UFO (turned out to be a dude on a parachute).

GODISMYSHADOW

Do you mean there are no true miracles but only the unexplained?

JaredJames

Correct.

Just because we can't explain it, doesn't mean it can't be explained.

There is exactly zero evidence for the supernatural, so why would I entertain it?

There are a great many things we don't understand. That doesn't make them supernatural.

nismaratwork

OK, let me just hold you up here: just read the guidelines for the forum, please. If you're expecting people to do anything except challenge you to prove something as extreme as miracles, you need proof beyond anything seen so far.

Beyond that, jarednjames said it all.

SpeedOfDark

This is something to be skeptical about, let me start off by saying I think it's not true because well lets be honest it's probably not but I can't say for sure that it's not because the evidence it presents is to much for me to wave away.



Also, I would like to state that it's definetly NOT a fact that they saw what they say they saw.

I had never saw this before and upon doing some reading, the conclusion is pretty obvious

http://sacredsites.com/europe/portugal/fatima.html

Apparently the spirits were only visible to the three children at first, then people all showed up. It says some of them thought they saw the sun dancing, many of them said they felt the ground shaking beneath their feet.

Although the sun was behind the clouds they still saw this( they may have or may have not ) but it wasn't actually their

It's not likely that all their stories don't correlate and as we all know journalism is too often and too few times accurate.

Read Lord of the Flies the part where they kill Simon, that's kinda how people lose there minds for a few seconds. Although, I suspect some of the people were just downright lying which I don't doubt because religion is involved.

Phrak

I have never been to a mass hysteria. Has anyone here attended one, and if so, can you describe it?

nismaratwork

Ever been to a rowdy concert?... the mindset is there, just not the right circumstances. If you've ever been near a riot or mob, or the point at which a group of individuals turns into a mob, again... very similar.

Beyond that, having never been there afaik (hope not!), the above would be my best guess based on how the nucleus accumbens (NAcc) works, and people.

JaredJames

Well, as nismar said, ever been to a concert (perhaps something with multiple artists)?

People may complain about one artists music, but during a concert may just get 'taken' with the atmosphere of the crowd and will tell you they enjoyed the whole night including that artist - even though they hate their music.

I know it's not quite the same, but it's the effect crowds can have on people. People get carried away.

Evo

The Salem witch trials are a famous case of people pretending to experience something and others starting to see and hear things.

Mass hysteria created from the famous reading of "War of the Worlds".

Here are some cases of mass hysteria. http://listverse.com/2009/03/16/top-...mass-hysteria/

nismaratwork

I agree with Jared and Evo... the difference between a crowd in that's acting in concert, and a mob is just a spark. There is a very similar thing which occurs in mass hysteria, which actually makes a great deal of sense.

If everyone else around you suddenly cues into food, or something dangerous it's an obvious benefit to have a part of your brain that 'listens' to that, and puts you a little more in lockstep. Unfortunately, everyone has a wealth of emotion, and that also seems to be something that the NAcc really rides.

In a very real way, although for obvious reasons it's tough to stick a mob in an MRI, it's becoming clear that mass-anything is just part of the human condition. We're BUILT to not make the same dumb mistakes we see our comrades make, but the downside is what people often term "group think". This is a much more literal version, in which it seems the mood... the 'tenor' if you will, of a group spreads ahead of verbal communication.

I'd add, you don't need EVERYONE to really be "hysterical"... some will lie to be part of it (who wants to be the one who DIDN'T see the miracle? lol), and MOST are simply not interviewed. 70,000 people... I haven't seen anything like evidence that they ALL saw this, but rather descriptions from a handful.

Phrak

Anyone have any personal evidence of mass hallucination?

I avoid crowds so the closest I've come is watching John Edward con an audience on television if that counts as mass hallucination.

nismaratwork

From what has been released about the length of those tapings, I don't think you ever have that effect. I was in a riot in Cyprus once, or rather, I was walking briskly away from once that began to form... there is a visceral effect when you're near a mob or mass. It didn't scramble my noggin and have me chanting slogans, but there's no other way to say it; you FEEL the crowd, you feel it "go bad".

It's probably a combination of sound, and body language, both obvious and subliminally (not in the vodoun sense), and the reaction of our NAcc. That's being COMPLETELY uninvolved and with no stake in what was going on... just a bystander.

Still, that's not mass hysteria even if there are similar mechanisms... I would love to hear an objective experience where it's observed in "nature" rather than induced in the lab.

SpeedOfDark

If everyone reported the exact same thing, and the sun was clearly visible and people didn't feel earthquakes that never happened. I would agree because it's highly unlikely that a story where everyone sees the EXACT same thing didn't happen would be false. Of course that wouldn't happen though because this is pure nonsense, of fairy tales and hoaxes. I can't believe we're getting caught up on debunking whether a few religious junkies lied or didn't lie about an event when the answer is so very obvious

JaredJames

Is there a need for this attitude? It's an interesting topic to read through and I personally have learnt a few things skimming through it. I don't see a problem with us discussing it.

SpeedOfDark

There's no probablem with discussing it, but it just seems like things that real science just doesn't agree with is always pawned off and acted like it is agree'd with or doesn't disagree with science when the fact is it does.There's so many really good topics to be skeptical about that scientists and people really aren't sure about. Instead though we always seem to get caught up debating ridiculous claims and very rarely if ever does any one post proof to back up these claims. If we just discuss things and attempt to be skeptical and debunk them but we never say just say " There's no evidence for this and none that is overwhelming or significant and it just can't be proven therefore it is false" then we're not being true skeptics.


Look at the list Ivan posted for credible anomalies most of those things are highly accepted fact in the scientific community or are an underlying mystery which has a good deal of evidence( to much to be dismissed on it's side.) Now look at the stuff we're debating.