Society and getting assaulted in jail

[humanino]

"guts", or "what it takes"

Yeah, right :rofl:
Well, my opinion is that it takes more to learn to respect the law, than just not get to the level where you understand what it is to be a grown up man.

 

[whatta]

yeah, right, indeed. "grown up men" never get caught (instead they spend wonderful weekends with family on hawaii).

 

[Moridin]

One way of avoiding inhumane treatment such as rape would be to have more security, more checks and more separation and confinement of prisoners. But wait, isn't that actually more inhumane?

Rape in prisons have to do with power and knocking down opponents. If there is no struggle for power, then there is no need to struggle for power.

 

[radou]

One way of avoiding inhumane treatment such as rape would be to have more security, more checks and more separation and confinement of prisoners. But wait, isn't that actually more inhumane?

No it isn't. It's only very expensive.

 

[Moridin]

No it isn't. It's only very expensive.

Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.

 

[cristo]

Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.

So, you intend prison to be some sort of day-care centre?

 

[radou]

Yes, it is. Instead of freely moving about at the prison in larger designated areas, as well as being outside and having a lot of activity, they are confined to solitude with no external stimuli at all. I would call that less humane.

Since we're talking about ideal non-existing prison systems, I assumed automatically that each prisoner shall have an area large enough to move freely as much as he wants, which makes the whole thing humane. :tongue:

(Of course, wellness centers, saunas, tennis courts, and private gold channels on TV are included. )

 

[quantumdude]

Prison is to rehabilitate, Moridin. You've assumed what you wanted to show.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I'm certainly not a softie when it comes to punishing criminals, but prisons exist to reform criminals, not to destroy their lives. Most prisoners aren't serving life sentences, which means they'll be rejoining us someday. Do you want them to come out as born-again good citizens, or as AIDS infected animals who can't function normally?

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

Yeah, it's definitely not practical, specially not from the financial viewpoint.

Yea, I definitely agree with you here.

----

There has to be a balance between rehabilitation opportunities and punishment. Too much punishment didn't work, I think that is why they got rid of the really old prisons in America where it was solitary confinement 24/7 and they all went nuts, I could probably find links, I saw a program about it on the history channel. This is what is behind the idea of the prisoners working on farmers fields and stuff for $0.10 an hour or whatever, they learn to work hard but it's obviously also a punishment.

If it was just punishment, when people are released they would be worse than when they went in... not good.

 

[quantumdude]

Well, I think the obvious solution for this sort of thing is forced castration of inmates.

 

[verty]

Tom, actually that's not a bad idea, especially for rapists. I'd be willing to support that. Not for all prisoners though, but for those who rape.

Well, it might happen that convicted rapists turn out to be innocent, so perhaps that's not a great idea, but for those who rape in prison, evidence would be easy to come by.

 

[Kurdt]

Tom, actually that's not a bad idea, especially for rapists. I'd be willing to support that. Not for all prisoners though, but for those who rape.

so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.

 

[humanino]

Well, I think the obvious solution for this sort of thing is forced castration of inmates.

Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? :tongue2: (it does exist)

so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I spit coffee on my screen

 

[imaplanck]

Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? :tongue2: (it does exist)

:

Is that a proposition? :rofl:

 

[radou]

so there is use for the guillotine in modern society.

Ouch. :rofl:

 

[Kurdt]

Hey, what do you do with female rappists ? :tongue2: (it does exist)

Expanding insulating foam

(Ok even I don't like that one)

I believe the seriousness of this thread has been incarcerated and is currently being repeatedly anally raped.

 

[radou]

I believe the seriousness of this thread has been incarcerated and is currently being repeatedly anally raped.

...as shall the forum guidelines be, unless posts in this thread stop being so...pictoresque.

But I guess it's inevitable.

 

[humanino]

Is that a proposition? :rofl:

Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture.

 

[Thrice]

Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture.

rawr



^^

 

[imaplanck]

Usually female rappists use tools. Maybe you did not quite get the picture.

I for one, am still not completely perturbed.

 

[Loren Booda]

Replace "DUI" with "schizophrenia." The largest de facto mental institutions in the U.S. are the Los Angeles County Jail and Rikers Island in New York. The patients of the 50's became the homeless of the 70's became the inmates of the 90's.

For those of you who know about psychosis, a horrifying, no-fault condition by itself, imagine being thrown into prison with such a condition, without medication, subject to extreme isolation, assault and suicide. One schizophrenic man took his own life with the only available means - jamming toilet paper down his throat.

Who gives a damn? Few, either Republican or Democrat.

 

[devil-fire]

im wondering what the difference is between being raped in prison and being whipped? we all know prison guards are not supposed to whip/beat/permanently disable/abuse/mutilate prisoners because its an inhumane way to treat a person, but if these things happen to prisoners By prisoners, that's perfectly acceptable somehow? i think not. remember that people are sentanced to consecutive life sentances for violently raping people. there is no excuse for doing this to another person, no matter how much emotional anguish they might have inflicted.

if a person getting systematically raped while in a prison is not a bad thing, i don't understand how cutting the hands off thieves is any different.

what do you think the rapists in prison are going to do then they get out? well raping an actual women would be a great idea when you think about it. they have lots of practice raping people who can resist more then a 130lb woman could, and when they get caught and sentenced to more prison time, why would they care? they don't have to listen to a manager tell them to scrub toilets or risk getting shot while selling drugs any more.

 

[Mk]

Is it just me, or is the main point of prison NOT TO:

1. Reform
2. Punish
3. Be nice
4. Be mean

But instead, to move those societal degenerates away from functional, productive society? Secondary objectives are to keep people in fear of being sent away, and to try and hope if they leave, that they come out functional and productive for society.

 

[Alkatran]

You can't watch enough of the prisoners enough of the time to stop this. So you need some sort of deterrent. The problems is: they're already in prison. More time in prison isn't nearly as scary because, hey, they're on top.

So you need a worse punishment (like solitary, torture, or death). Of course, all of those are pretty cruel... Do we want to be cruel to seriously misbehaving prisoners?

 

[devil-fire]

Is it just me, or is the main point of prison... to move those societal degenerates away from functional, productive society?

i agree that this is the most basic function of a prison, however i would like to think the institution has evolved some in the past few hundred years.

Secondary objectives are to keep people in fear of being sent away, and to try and hope if they leave, that they come out functional and productive for society

i also agree on this point. i think the modern prison system in western society has no problem fulfilling the primary function and we are now able to focus on these secondary functions as basic roles of the institution. i would like to point out though that i think the 'fear of being sent away' should refer to having limited freedoms and not include the possibility of systematic rape or abuse.

 

[ray b]

sad to see so many hard time fans here
sorry but I expect better from smarter people
but most echo the deep south rednecked ideals of a chaingang

a DUI without hurting anyone
should not land one in a hard core max prison
but a rehab type place without predatory type people
BUT the USA has far tooo many people in prisons
mostly nonviolent types for rule breaking like DUI or drugs
both are not cured by hard time
and should never be mixed with rape
or predatory type people who should be locked up
but not with DUI or drug people

I think prisons are run by nasty people
who care little about those in them
and our culture should ashamed of they way we handle this
we can and should do better

 

[arildno]

What intent you have for locking up someone pretty much determines what you'd accept going on in there, or how long you think people should sit there.

Personally, I think neither the punishment idea or the rehabilitation thinking have much force; segregation of dangerous persons (irrespective of such flawed ideas of whether a person was "sane" in a judicial sense or not) is my favoured view.

I don't see any reason why one should wilfully harm others, calling it "punishment"; that's just plain old cruelty dressed up for the occasion.

Nor do I see any sound reason to emancipate individuals one has reason to suspect will harm others. That's dangerously naive.
By default, then, people proven to have harmed others seriously ought to be indefinitely restrained in some sort of manner, until we can be certain they won't do so again.

 

[Moonbear]

a DUI without hurting anyone
should not land one in a hard core max prison
but a rehab type place without predatory type people

I agree. Someone getting repeated DUIs is not likely doing it because they have a criminal intent, but more likely has a substance abuse problem that needs to be treated. It makes no sense at all to lock them up in a maximum security prison with rapists and murderers. Non-violent offenders whose crimes are primarily related to substance abuse problems need a different facility from those who are violent offenders or who actually have criminal intent. Every effort should also be made to identify those violent offenders who have committed their crimes because of treatable mental illnesses (such as schizophrenia, as mentioned above). For some of these people, until treatment is effective, they are every bit as dangerous as hardened criminals, so they may still need a maximum security facility, but that should also mean maximum security FOR the inmates, not FROM the inmates.

If we expect to release people from prison, which we do, then we shouldn't be subjecting them to conditions that return them to society worse off than when they went in. It makes no sense to make them less capable of assimmilating back into society upon their release. That only increases the likelihood of recidivism.

Of course, prison is not meant to be a country club either...we don't want people committing new crimes after leaving because it's a better life for them in prison than out of prison (for some, it is...3 squares and a cot is better than being hungry and sleeping in a cardboard box somewhere). But it needn't be a hell hole either.

Why are these things not changed? Money. It will be expensive to revamp the entire prison system. To treat the mentally ill as mentally ill rather than caging them up and ignoring their illness will require improvements to facilities, increased personnel, and all of the related medical treatment. But, converting a number of prisons to maximum security mental hospitals and treating the root of these people's problems rather than the symptoms would likely go a long way toward reducing recidivism. It would also take a change in mentality about sentencing. Instead of sentences defined by time limits, sentences defined by progress would be better in those cases. When the inmate/patient is on a treatment that is effective, and stabilized, and has had sufficient time to overcome any addictions to the extent they are likely to be able to stay clean once released, then release them. Otherwise, if they are not effectively stabilized, or are resistant to available treatments, then hold them longer, or transfer to a longer term mental hospital for continuation of care.

Trying to get such changes implemented, and the money for them is certainly tough when you have so many people with the attitude that these prisoners are simply the scum of the Earth rather than people with problems that need to be addressed. Some will always be too unsafe to return to society...the murderer or serial rapist who will do it again the moment they miss a few doses of medication, so needs lifelong supervision to ensure they take their medication.

If you treated all those in prison because of mental illness as mentally ill and not criminal, then the only people left to deal with would be those who are more of opportunists and commit crimes because they know/think they can get away with it to get rich quick, such as con artists, drug dealers (not users), and white collar criminals.

 

[Mk]

a DUI without hurting anyone
should not land one in a hard core max prison
but a rehab type place without predatory type people

Don't think it did! And they do make you do a rehab type place, a course, even in many cases that you aren't I drunkard or addict.

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070214/ap_on_re_us/scalia_daughter_dui

WHEATON, Ill. - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's daughter was arrested this week and charged with driving under the influence of alcohol and child endangerment, officials said Wednesday.

She will likely not go to jail or prison.

The situation in the OP seems to be one of 'cruel and unusal' punishment, and that has been a persistent problem as long as I can remember. For most, it's out of sight, out of mind. To change it would require politicians with moral conviction, or a society with a moral conviction to make the system less retributive and more penitential.

 

[hypatia]

Being the mother of a child murdered by a 4 time DUI driver...I wonder just how many chances you want to give these "poor people with a problem" to kill?

Edited to add, In MI, they do give you large fines{up to 10,000} and mandatory treatment, many times befor you get to go to prison.

 

[Astronuc]

Being the mother of a child murdered by a 4 time DUI driver...I wonder just how many chances you want to give these "poor people with a problem" to kill?

My condolensces on your loss, hypatia.

I don't think anyone here wants people guilty of DUI out and about. Rather, I believe the point is to put them in a facility where they cannot harm others, hopefully receive treatment (cure?), and are not viciously harmed themselves. White collar criminals, who cause significant harm financially and otherwise, can sit in what are effectively country-clubs (minimum security prison).

The treatment of irresponsible people who DWI/DUI on alcohol or other substances is nonuniform. Some people get the book thrown at them the first or second time, while others go out and repeat many times. My wife was a drug and alcohol counselor, and what she had to deal with was unbelieveable.

The 4-time DUI who killed your child should not have been allowed behind the wheel.

The point of justice is uniformity and fairness - everyone gets similar treatment for the same infractions. Certainly, the first DUI indicates that someone putting others at risk for harm or death, and that should be enough to revoke the 'privilege' (and responsibility) of driving.

Compare the man in the OP with the guy that broadsided a car and killed an infant, because he ran a stop sign while making a call on his cell phone. He was found not guilty of the homicide.

 

[hypatia]

Back to the OP

Sing-Sing NY was the model for the reform of prisoners. The emphasis was on individual cell-block architecture to create an environment to rehabilitate and reform, to separate the criminal from all contact with corruption and then teach him moral habits of order and regularity. This was in 1824.

The second wave of prison reform began with the 1870 National Congress on Penitentiary and Reformatory Discipline that led to the founding of the American Correctional Association, known then as the National Prison Association, and to the building of Elmira Reformatory. Zebulon Brockway began an effort to classify and segregate type of prisoners, provide individualized treatment including vocational training, rewards for good behavior, parole, indeterminate sentences. The focus shifted from penitence and punishment to individual treatment.
This was in 1876

And now after 100's of such reform programs have been inacted, prison still doesn't cure all but a few.

It seems prison reform is a on going problem. And its not just a problem in the states, its world wide. And its not just men being raped in prison, its woman too.
There is much unfairness in the systems world wide. But then again, there is not a whole lot about the world that is fair. But I know when I explained to my foster son, that I would not bail him out of jail{he had a few ruff years}, but I would be willing to send him soap on a rope. The look of horror on his face was more realizing then when I told him about facing the judge.

 

[ray b]

Don't think it did! And they do make you do a rehab type place, a course, even in many cases that you aren't I drunkard or addict.

state laws and trial count rulings vary
the outcome is more random then rational
and very often illrational even absurd
manditory minimums come into play too

most get a big fine the first time
treatment and/or some jail the second
and prison for the third
but rules for the rich are very very different

 

[Loren Booda]

Being raped in prison might drive one to drink or abuse other substances. Also, prisons have a cornucopia of addictive drugs for the right price. The longer they're in for, the more difficult seems the rehabilitation.