Register to reply

Why does heat go UP?

by DyslexicHobo
Tags: heat
Share this thread:
DyslexicHobo
#1
Apr26-07, 09:16 PM
P: 248
So I understand why heated molecules move faster--they have more energy.

But, for my example, I'll use a water molecule. A water molecule has a certain density, and that density is more than that of air (which is why water stays in a pot). But when the water is heated to 100 deg. Celsius, it becomes steam. This steam always travels in an upward direction. I'm assuming this is because those H2O molecules have more energy--but why do they always go UP? Why don't they just go in some arbitrary directions?

And sorry, I'm not well-versed in Chemistry at all. Actually quite an idiot on the subject. :-(

But thanks for any useful input!
Phys.Org News Partner Physics news on Phys.org
Scientists uncover clues to role of magnetism in iron-based superconductors
Researchers find first direct evidence of 'spin symmetry' in atoms
X-ray laser probes tiny quantum tornadoes in superfluid droplets
turbo
#2
Apr26-07, 09:20 PM
PF Gold
turbo's Avatar
P: 7,363
Heat does not go up. Heated materials are often more voluminous/lighter than surrounding materials, and thus can rise, but that does not mean that "heat rises".
DyslexicHobo
#3
Apr27-07, 06:18 AM
P: 248
Quote Quote by turbo-1 View Post
Heat does not go up. Heated materials are often more voluminous/lighter than surrounding materials, and thus can rise, but that does not mean that "heat rises".
Yeah, I meant "heated molecules" when I said "heat". Sorry for bad wording.

So when an H2O molecule is heated, the actual molecule expands to make its density lower than that of air?

daniel_i_l
#4
Apr27-07, 06:31 AM
PF Gold
daniel_i_l's Avatar
P: 867
Why does heat go UP?

This question can be answered statistically:
If you have molecules with a lot of energy together with the ones that habe lower energy, then it's easier for the hi-energy ones to move up because they have more KE to change into PE and rise. So after a while you'd expect to find that more of the "hot" ones have risen than the "cold" ones.
Sojourner01
#5
Apr27-07, 06:37 AM
P: 372
I'm glad this went into statistics quickly.

'Air packet' models are very useful for solving problems, but terrible for explaining what's going on. I feel like slapping everyone who presents an air parcel explanation with a fish.
HallsofIvy
#6
Apr27-07, 06:38 AM
Math
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
Thanks
PF Gold
P: 39,503
In other words, heated molecules go up in comparison with colder molecules because they have more energy to overcome gravity which is always down. If there were no gravity, there would be no "up" or "down" so there would be no preferred direction.
PRDan4th
#7
Apr27-07, 07:01 AM
P: 63
Heated molecules rise in air because they are less dense. Therefore a hot air baloon works as long as the air inside the baloon is heated. Now steam rises in air because steam (H2O in gasious state) has a molucular weight of 18 and air has an effective molucular weight of 29 (actually O2 @ 32 and N2 @ 28). What you see when boiling water is condensed steam or liquid water, steam is invisible.
russ_watters
#8
Apr27-07, 07:10 AM
Mentor
P: 22,288
Individual molecules are all the same density regardless of temperature. What is different is the density of the gas. [edit] Lemme reword that: The concept of density does not really apply to individual molecules. Density is a property only of the fluid, the collection of multiple molecules. [/edit]

I prefer the bulk fluid transport (buoyancy) model of warm air rising, but many physicists appear to prefer the statistical method. There are many cases, however, where the statistical method is inappropriate, such as in a helium or hot air balloon. Engineers are taught this way in fluids classes (at least in undergrad) because it is the most applicable to real-life engineering problems.
chemisttree
#9
Apr27-07, 11:08 AM
Sci Advisor
HW Helper
PF Gold
chemisttree's Avatar
P: 3,724
Quote Quote by DyslexicHobo View Post
Yeah, I meant "heated molecules" when I said "heat". Sorry for bad wording.

So when an H2O molecule is heated, the actual molecule expands to make its density lower than that of air?
Nope. The heated molecule actually has more kinetic energy and is moving at a greater velocity. The collisions it makes with all of the other air molecules (nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, argon, etc...) causes them to be spaced further apart. Now the same number of molecules of 'air' occupy a greater volume. This is what is meant by lower density... less mass in a given volume. The surrounding air is cooler and therefore denser. In a gravitational field, the less dense air rises.
Ahmed Abdullah
#10
Apr29-07, 12:11 AM
P: 183
Do molecules of all liquids go up when heated?
H20 has less molecular mass than average air, what happens with liquids of greater molecular mass?
lpfr
#11
Apr29-07, 02:31 PM
P: 388
Quote Quote by Ahmed Abdullah View Post
Do molecules of all liquids go up when heated?
H20 has less molecular mass than average air, what happens with liquids of greater molecular mass?
They go down. If you put a heavy but volatile liquid in the bottom of a flask, it will evaporate, but stay in the bottom. You can make the experience with nasty solvents as carbon tetrachloride or chloroform. It may even work with nail enamel solvent. If you drop a soap bubble in the flask, it will float over the solvent vapors at some centimeters of the bottom (I did it).
Ahmed Abdullah
#12
Apr29-07, 11:07 PM
P: 183
Thnx for the information (I have learned something new:).
Ahmed Abdullah
#13
Apr30-07, 12:54 AM
P: 183
Quote Quote by lpfr View Post
They go down. If you put a heavy but volatile liquid in the bottom of a flask, it will evaporate, but stay in the bottom. You can make the experience with nasty solvents as carbon tetrachloride or chloroform. It may even work with nail enamel solvent. If you drop a soap bubble in the flask, it will float over the solvent vapors at some centimeters of the bottom (I did it).
In this particular case both liquid and its sorrounding air are at same temperature
, so the kinetic energies of air molecules and evaporating molecules are same.
But when you heat carbon tetrachloride at 76.8 °C (boiling point of CCl4), it will certainly go up.
u83rn00b
#14
May4-07, 11:08 PM
P: 18
COLD IS HEAVIER! picture cold as a damn ice cube, it would fall. and u no how on really hot days, u see like blurry lines on the pavement and off of cars? it goes up! picture an ice cube melted from the soild(ice cube) to liquid(water) to gas(steam). steam floats.(*THIS IS THE WAY I FIGURE AND REMEMBER IT*) i donno...these tips help me suring like a test so....yea...
joshd
#15
May5-07, 05:05 AM
P: 27
Quote Quote by u83rn00b View Post
COLD IS HEAVIER! picture cold as a damn ice cube, it would fall. and u no how on really hot days, u see like blurry lines on the pavement and off of cars? it goes up! picture an ice cube melted from the soild(ice cube) to liquid(water) to gas(steam). steam floats.(*THIS IS THE WAY I FIGURE AND REMEMBER IT*) i donno...these tips help me suring like a test so....yea...
but if you put an icecube in water it goes UP ;)

it is to do with density rather than temperature.
lpfr
#16
May5-07, 05:52 AM
P: 388
Quote Quote by Ahmed Abdullah View Post
In this particular case both liquid and its sorrounding air are at same temperature
, so the kinetic energies of air molecules and evaporating molecules are same.
But when you heat carbon tetrachloride at 76.8 C (boiling point of CCl4), it will certainly go up.
No, it won't.
The molecular mass of carbon tetrachloride is 153.8. The mean molecular mass of air is about 28. Then the density of ClC4 is 5.49 times that of air. I you heat ClC4 it will become lighter, but not enough to go up. You must heat ClC4 about 1350 C over the temperature of air for the two to have the same density. I don't know the chemical behavior of ClC4 at these temperatures I don't know if it decomposes
lpfr
#17
May5-07, 05:59 AM
P: 388
Quote Quote by DyslexicHobo View Post
So when an H2O molecule is heated, the actual molecule expands to make its density lower than that of air?
No. The molecule does not expand. Just its speed increases and it hits harder the other molecules and the wall of the container: at constant volume the pressure that it exerts increases. If the gas is allowed to expand, the speed (and the temperature) diminishes.
siddharth
#18
May5-07, 06:18 AM
HW Helper
PF Gold
siddharth's Avatar
P: 1,197
If you're interested, you can find a nice set of articles on the basic mechanism of free convection at the Nonoscience blog.

- Free Convection I
- Free Convection II
- Free Convection and the Rayleigh Number


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Heat Engine with Finite Heat Capacity- Is my answer correct? Introductory Physics Homework 3
Quantity of Heat/Specific Heat Water+Iron Introductory Physics Homework 3
Specific Heat and Phase Change/Latent Heat Problems PLEASE HELP Introductory Physics Homework 5
Specific heat, latent heat, and temp Introductory Physics Homework 3
Specific heat capacity and latent heat of fusion Introductory Physics Homework 4