Would you change your undergraduate studies if given the chance?

[kyle_soule]

I have come to the conclusion, through 4 years of Hell/High School that it is nothing more than a place for social development and clique's. I have found only higher level math and science classes actually teach, all other classes are for social skills and to pass the time.

Did/does anybody else feel this way?

 

[Dj Sneaky Whiskers]

I'm not sure I agree, I'm still finding it very hard to use the History of the Russian Revolution, or 'The Merchant of Venice' to good effect whilst socialising at a rolling drum n' bass night.

Maybe I just didn't go to a very good school though.

 

[plus]

I think that the whole university/school thing is just to develop into an adult. Most of what you learn is pointless.

I sometimes think that it would be better if many more people started work at 16.

 

[bogdan]

In high school yoou probably find out what you like to do...what job to choose...what are you good at...that's all...aaa...and a big waste of time...

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by bogdan
In high school yoou probably find out what you like to do...what job to choose...what are you good at...that's all...aaa...and a big waste of time...

You find out what you like to do [maybe], but not in school, maybe I'm different. I love astronomy, nowhere in the school will you find anything that deals with astronomy, I also love philosophy, again, nowhere in my high school is philosophy offered.

 

[Mulder]

School is a lot about developing social skills etc. You can study Philosophy if you so choose for the rest of your life if you want after school.

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by Mulder
School is a lot about developing social skills etc. You can study Philosophy if you so choose for the rest of your life if you want after school.

This was my first thought...that high school was mainly social development, with little or no useful information being gained.

Also, I don't want to study philosophy, but it would have been a fun class to take.

 

[vshiro]

You are all wrong. School is not there for you to cultivate social abilities, it is there to provide a backdrop for you to be a bad-ass. If nobody forces you to do anything, how can you rebel against authority?

 

[C0mmie]

Somethimes I think the purpose of school is the exact opposite of socian developement: that is to suppress your social skills. For me, AP tests and finals are coming up, and I just finished a project where I had to write twenty 1-page papers, and for the past month, I often had not the time to do as much as chat online with friends, and in school I get yelled at for talking. So much for social developement.

Frankly, I'm beginning to think that most of the stuff we do in high school has no point whatsoever. It's just stuff that the fat cats upstaits think up of to make our lives more difficult and more miserable, and the better they do so the more they get paid. For example, who would need to learn in depth every step that happens in mitosis and meiosis, or memorize every single organelle in a cell, but my school finds it necessary to force every student to do so, including myslelf last year, but I've already forgotten most of it. Most students also complain about having to learn trig and Calculus and electorn orbits in chemistry, I have no problem with that stuff cause my career is going to revolve around it, but those people who major in pshychology or art shouldn't have to learn electron orbits and acid-base reactions.

My theory is as follows: the more courses the teachers teach and the more students they have in their classes the more they get paid, and that is why we have to sit through all those boring lectures on stuff we know we're never going to use.

 

[Artman]

I've always looked at learning as something that you do for yourself. When I went to High School, the "top ten honor" students split up homework problems, cheated on tests by passing answers to members taking the tests in later classes, and intimidated people who attempted to do better then them in school (as an example, I blew a grading curve in chemistry by getting a 100 on a test that half the class failed. A member of the "top ten" approached me afterwards and told me not to do it again.) I don't know how much they actually learned but I would call their acquired skills anti-social (and this was the smart kids).

As with anything, you get out of it what you put in. if you want to learn, you can.

 

[jb]

Originally posted by Artman
the "top ten honor" students split up homework problems, cheated on tests by passing answers to members taking the tests in later classes

they still do this, at least where i go to school. part of the reason for this (i'm not condoning it, although i admit I've done it) is the top 20 are the busiest. I'm in that group, and i play sports in 2 seasons, I'm active with school music, other school activities, and out of school activities. on top of that, i have no study halls and 8 classes, mostly honors. and the other 19 kids are in the same boat, some work on top of that. i think most people in this group have figured out that they'll do pretty much the same on tests whether or not they do assignments themselves or study, so if they don't have time they'll blow of work for some classes. I'm not a huge fan of passing actual answers, but I'm not as concerned about giving some help, like filling in a missing step for someone who's stuck on a problem. also, there's a lot of pressure put on the top few students to get good grades, and a few points here and there can mean the difference between a full ride scholarship to a good school, or shelling out $40,000.

if you think about it, it encourages cooperative working skills. any other time in life, if you have a problem, you can go to others for help.

i think one of the best ways to eliminate cheating is to find alternative ways to measure progress. grades can create a lot of pressure on students and might lead even the top ones to cheat.

 

[C0mmie]

Originally posted by jb
i think one of the best ways to eliminate cheating is to find alternative ways to measure progress. grades can create a lot of pressure on students and might lead even the top ones to cheat.

I fully agree with that. At my school, stupid people take honors classes and study for several hours per night and do every single homework assignment for every single class and get better grades than I do, even though I understand all the material much better than they do (in math and science classes especially). This is not fair, cause smart people should get good grades regardless of whether or not they do their homework or study for tests. What's going to happen is the not-smart hard-working people are going to end up getting into a nice college while I'm going to get rejected cause of all those C's on my report card.

I'm not sure, can one still get into places like Princeton or MIT if they have C's (more than one) on their permanent record? I've asked this quetion before and got a positive answer, but that doesn't seem right. Could someone clarify that for me?

 

[Zero]

I'm a decade out of school, but what I remember is that the good teachers used class assignments to teach you HOW to think, not just what to memorize.

 

[Hurkyl]

Also, part of the point of high school is to learn how to study. Buckling down and doing all of your homework rigorously is important even when you fully understand the material because if you don't, you won't be able to do it well when you get to the advanced stuff.

I was essentially able to coast through my undergrad degrees because lectures and homework selections were sufficient for me (I had some real good professors), but I have been stymied when trying to learn independently subjects like topology, differential geometry, and quantum mechanics because I rarely practiced study habits beyond simply reading and rereading material... so I only come out of my studies with only the gist of the subject rather than the in-depth knowledge I know I should be able to obtain.

 

[plus]

Originally posted by C0mmie
I fully agree with that. At my school, stupid people take honors classes and study for several hours per night and do every single homework assignment for every single class and get better grades than I do, even though I understand all the material much better than they do (in math and science classes especially). This is not fair, cause smart people should get good grades regardless of whether or not they do their homework or study for tests. What's going to happen is the not-smart hard-working people are going to end up getting into a nice college while I'm going to get rejected cause of all those C's on my report card.

I'm not sure, can one still get into places like Princeton or MIT if they have C's (more than one) on their permanent record? I've asked this quetion before and got a positive answer, but that doesn't seem right. Could someone clarify that for me?

If you don't work at school, how can a university be sure that you will there. In all likelihood, with the added freedom of living away from home, and with alcohol available, you will probably work less hard. Hence, why universities want hard workers at school.

 

[C0mmie]

Originally posted by plus
If you don't work at school, how can a university be sure that you will there. In all likelihood, with the added freedom of living away from home, and with alcohol available, you will probably work less hard. Hence, why universities want hard workers at school.

But if one can understand all the material and do good on a test without doing any work, he shouldn't have to work.

 

[plus]

Originally posted by C0mmie
But if one can understand all the material and do good on a test without doing any work, he shouldn't have to work.

Then you would get good grades in the tests, and would have no cause to complain.

My point was that if you are failing at school, it is likely that you will fail at a good university.

 

[Hurkyl]

But if one can understand all the material and do good on a test without doing any work, he shouldn't have to work.

To quote an interviewer I once had:

"Test scores only impress people who are impressed by test scores"


For many things, familiarity with a subject is as important (if not more important) than understanding of that subject... and you only get familiarity by doing work.

Having both, of course, is best.

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by jb
i think one of the best ways to eliminate cheating is to find alternative ways to measure progress. grades can create a lot of pressure on students and might lead even the top ones to cheat.

Grades aren't important by themselves, it is the way chosen to measure progress. If you give someone a cookie everytime they do well, people will still cheat for the cookie, as long as their is a reward or measure of progress there will always be cheating.

I fully agree with that. At my school, stupid people take honors classes and study for several hours per night and do every single homework assignment for every single class and get better grades than I do, even though I understand all the material much better than they do (in math and science classes especially). This is not fair, cause smart people should get good grades regardless of whether or not they do their homework or study for tests. What's going to happen is the not-smart hard-working people are going to end up getting into a nice college while I'm going to get rejected cause of all those C's on my report card.

You are mad that others work harder than you and as a result do better? Apparently they know the subject matter better if they can apply it on tests...and you don't know it if you can't apply it, it seems that they (contrary to your opinion) understand the material better, as the grades reflect this. Just because you are smart doesn't mean that the class material is common sense, or within the realm of your intelligence, viz. Taylor Series aren't something you would know without calculus.

Yes, hard working people do get the good jobs and good placement in college, lazy smart people will not, the college/employer can not go by your word on how smart you are.

 

[Cartesio]

C0mmie

'At my school, stupid people take honors classes and study for several hours per night and do every single homework assignment for every single class and get better grades than I do, even though I understand all the material much better than they do (in math and science classes especially). This is not fair, cause smart people should get good grades regardless of whether or not they do their homework or study for tests. What's going to happen is the not-smart hard-working people are going to end up getting into a nice college while I'm going to get rejected cause of all those C's on my report card.'

I went through a different education system in another country. There were many 'stupid' students (stupid is a bit too harsh, let's just say they thought differently, or more accurately, whose mental capabilities were lower)...These students worked very hard, much harder than their more gifted counterparts, and this hard work resulted in good grades. Many of the 'bright' students were lazy so to speak, thus the teachers found it surprising that students with great potential were in the bottom cadre. They were active in class discussions, projects etc but the harder you work at something, the better you are at it, so that must have been the case with the weaker students.

There are many ways through which one can kill a rat. You can get good grades through cheating, etc etc. Granted, hard work isn't necessarily the most enjoyable way through which one can obtain good grades but it is almost infallible. Commie, do you know any 'bright' students who have worked hard AND failed(assuming the absence of external factors such as family/drug/alcohol problems etc) I highly doubt that. Hard work is your safest bet.

Where I come from, there are many 'smart' people who are jobless or criminals, homeless, hopeless you name it. The education system there does not reward the 'smart'. It rewards those who 'work hard', work hard can be defined as memorising the texts verbatim ( 3 hours every night poring over the biology texts every week, you oughtta be able to quote it verbatim).

 

[iansmith]

Originally posted by C0mmie
I fully agree with that. At my school, stupid people take honors classes and study for several hours per night and do every single homework assignment for every single class and get better grades than I do, even though I understand all the material much better than they do (in math and science classes especially). This is not fair, cause smart people should get good grades regardless of whether or not they do their homework or study for tests. What's going to happen is the not-smart hard-working people are going to end up getting into a nice college while I'm going to get rejected cause of all those C's on my report card.

You see that through the school system. I am one of the lazy smart student. In high school, I used to get A's without putting any effort (I don't remmeber studying much). When I started university, my average dropped and the hard working "stupid" people (I called them overachiever)had A's. So I decided to work instead of playing video game so I raise my average to above the level require for graduate level. So Cartesio said hard work is a save bet and high school helps you to have a good working habits. You should also consider that the overachiever get frustated when you tell them you only study 3 hours the nigth before the test and got a grade equivalent to them.

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by Cartesio
C0mmie

'At my school, stupid people take honors classes and study for several hours per night and do every single homework assignment for every single class and get better grades than I do, even though I understand all the material much better than they do (in math and science classes especially). This is not fair, cause smart people should get good grades regardless of whether or not they do their homework or study for tests. What's going to happen is the not-smart hard-working people are going to end up getting into a nice college while I'm going to get rejected cause of all those C's on my report card.'

Studying for the grade? I see what you are saying, happens all the time, most of the time, in high school. Is it the same in college?

 

[iansmith]

Originally posted by kyle_soule
Studying for the grade? I see what you are saying, happens all the time, most of the time, in high school. Is it the same in college?

Yea aned a lot more than high school. If you want to get to grad school you need a certain average and if you want bursaires, fellowship or any kind of free money you also need the grades. I remember people that study physics and calculus by doing the each problems 5 times in order to memorize how to do the problems. Changing a variable screwed them up (that was a fun joke to do ).

 

[C0mmie]

I seem to have run into a lot of opposition here with the "'stupid' people studying hard" issue, not to to say that I don't agree that learning to study hard is an important part of high school. I am very well aware that it is, and I've spent the last 2 weeks studying for the U.S. History AP (and I'm not looking foreward to that). What originally compeled me to post my previous post was the realization that my not doing any of my math homework this year hurt my grade a lot (cause we have random 'homework checks'), and that upset me cause I can understand all the stuff and get 100+ percent on tests without doing any homework, so I reason that I have no need to do it. But high school is all jumping though hoops is it not?

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by C0mmie
I seem to have run into a lot of opposition here with the "'stupid' people studying hard" issue, not to to say that I don't agree that learning to study hard is an important part of high school. I am very well aware that it is, and I've spent the last 2 weeks studying for the U.S. History AP (and I'm not looking foreward to that). What originally compeled me to post my previous post was the realization that my not doing any of my math homework this year hurt my grade a lot (cause we have random 'homework checks'), and that upset me cause I can understand all the stuff and get 100+ percent on tests without doing any homework, so I reason that I have no need to do it. But high school is all jumping though hoops is it not?

You want high school to be more like college, in that you don't have to do the homework if you understand the material? I haven't done much of anything my high school carrier, as I never saw a reason to put forth effort in fields I have not chosen to pursue, I have gotten mostly A's and the occasional B, and in math C's and B's because I, also, rarely do homework. This doesn't bother me because I have concerned myself with other matters, such as astronomy and such, fields I would like to go into or pursue, at the very least in an indirect way.

 

[Cartesio]

Originally posted by iansmith
When I started university, my average dropped and the hard working "stupid" people (I called them overachiever)had A's. So I decided to work instead of playing video game so I raise my average to above the level require for graduate level. [/B]

Iansmith, what do you study? If you had the opportunity to go through your undergraduate year again, what would you do and what would you not do, as pertains to your studies?

 

[iansmith]

Originally posted by Cartesio
Iansmith, what do you study? If you had the opportunity to go through your undergraduate year again, what would you do and what would you not do, as pertains to your studies?

I have a BSc (Ag) with a major in microbiology. If had to redo my undergrad I would of study my first sememster rather than doing nothing at all and you not get drunk the nigth before a final (it is hard to do an exam hang over). My first semester is what that hurt my GPA. The first year is really not interresting in university because you take all those basic class that are review and general and classes that you have not interrest in. This is the only thing I would change.