Out-Of-Body Experience!

Ploegman

What is an out-of-the-body experience?

Out-of-body-experiences (OBEs) are those curious, and usually brief experiences in which a person's consciousness seems to depart from his or her body, enabling observation of the world from a point of view other than that of the physical body and by means other than those of the physical senses. Thus, an out-of-the-body experience can initially be defined as 'an experience in which a person seems to perceive the world from a location outside his physical body' [Bla82]. In some cases experients claim that they 'saw' and 'heard' things (objects which were really there, events and conversations which really took place) which could not have seen or heard from the actual positions of their bodies.

Basically, an OBE is where you travel outside of your body as your spirit, there are many books written on the subject and much accounted for within this subject.

I am now wondering, what is possible in this four dimensional world that has now been opened through OBE? I have read stories about people who have had many OBE experiances, and they talk about their "flights" and their "spherical vision" and all kinds of things. In this "fourth dimension" or "spiritual dimension" whichever you would prefer to call it, I believe that your mind controls your actions in a different way then here in our world.

I believe in a Spiritual world, I know a few very credible sources within my families friend's that have seen ghosts. I have no doubt that spirits exist, and in fact, I believe these spirits to inhabit the fourth dimension which is not visible to our meager minds.

When in this fourth dimension people say that they would think of something and suddenly it would happen, they would think "turn left" and they would fly left. It is more of controlling everything with your mind rather then with your muscles.

Anyway, I would like your thoughts on this subject, I will also attach below a couple of links to some really good books on the subject and a really good link about OBEs.

Books:
Adventures Beyond the Body : Proving Your Immortality Through Out-of-Body Travel
The Secret of the Soul : Using Out-of-Body Experiences to Understand Our True Nature

Journeys Out of the Body
Far Journeys
Ultimate Journey

Link:
OutofBody.co.uk

RuroumiKenshin

This should be in the mysitics forum. not in the theoretical physics forum.

Ploegman

I can see what you mean, it could go either way however.

My post was asking about the possibilities of this having to do with the fourth dimension or another dimension, along with others.

Alternate dimensions, be it spacial or spiritual are all theoretical, so it could also go under the theoretical physics forum.

Alexander

Actually it should be in "How to capitalize on people who believe in supertitions" forum.

J-Man

Originally posted by Ploegman
I would like your thoughts on this subject,

I think an OBE is a dream.
Same for the "white light in a tunnel" syndrome.

Ivan Seeking

Like most things, I prefer to have some experience before forming an opinion. I have a little experience with this one. When I was much much younger I became interested in this claim [actually astral projection] by means of a high school teacher. This seemed easy enough. People say that if you practice you too can do this. So, I tried it. I practiced meditation techniques [really just relaxation techniques] that are supposed to prepare one for intentional astral projection - an OBE. I practiced nearly every night for over two years. With each month I could relax my entire body more quickly and deeply than the last. After about a year I could put my entire body under in about ten seconds. I hovered around this level of proficiency for quite a while.

The next level of this experience came suddenly one night without any warning or expectations. With my body completely relaxed - which actually a yields a feeling of one's body being like a concrete slab that encapsulates ones brain - I was "pushing" with my mind to create a sense of acceleration as prescribed by the methodology. For the first time ever, I began to hear a buzzing noise that kept increasing in intensity. I then began to feel an upward rushing that was not of my doing; and the darkness [my eyes closed] went from dark to darker and eventually to inky black. Over a period of I think about ten seconds the three sensations of buzzing, ever blackening darkness, and of accelerating upward, grew more and more intense until I began to feel overwhelmed with fear. Then I felt a great impulse to recoil with terrible fear for my life. I suddenly found myself standing next to my bed wide awake. I had literally bolted out of bed without even knowing it!

The experience was so intense and terrifying I have never seriously pursued this "skill" since. I learned later that what I experienced is common for "first timers".

I make no claims that this was an OBE or a real experience in any way[other than exactly as described]. This is what the believers would say though. Also, true believers will tell you to be careful, that without proper preparation this can be dangerous. Based on my own reaction I could believe it! [I didn't say I do; just that I could].

Ivan Seeking

Originally posted by Ploegman
people who have had many OBE experiances, and they talk about their "flights" and their "spherical vision" and all kinds of things. In this "fourth dimension" or "spiritual dimension" whichever you would prefer to call it,...

The fourth dimension is considered to be time. We do play with ideas of other spatial dimensions, but to equate this somehow with a spiritual world is only wild guessing. To a physicist this make little to no sense. I try to allow for what I see as a language problem here. Experiencers attempt to describe mystical experiences in terms of modern language; and often in the modern language of physics. The terms are applied incorrectly but they convey the sense of the experiences. The scientists say Bologna! Nonsense! And they're right. Even if they're wrong they're right. We have no basis to use these terms - that mean something very specific to scientist - to approximate a sense of some experience. So on this point we quickly get into trouble.

Some renegades do propose a literal relationship here - such as Capra and "The Tao of Physics". But these ideas are viewed by most, I think, as loose interpretations applied incorrectly. I give it a few more points than that.
.

username

Well you could devise an experiment of sorts by giving the patient some exotic drug like ketamine to try and induce an OBE then you would place a screen between the patient and some unknown object on the other side so the patient could only see the object from say above his/her body. Anybody want to be my patient lol :)

Ivan Seeking

Originally posted by username
...you would place a screen between the patient and some unknown object on the other side so the patient could only see the object from say above his/her body. Anybody want to be my patient lol :)

A few groups have done this in cardiac units. To my knowledge no one has ever read the secret information. Still, in other examples people can describe events and details of a procedure that took place while they had no measurable brain function.

Edit: The last time I heard anything definite about the cardiac units, I don't think any patients had claimed a near death experience in the right place and time so as to qualify.

ranyart

The run-of-the-mill OBE, is where Quantum Conciousness and Reality cross paths, inside the mind of a subject that has a traumatic experience(most often a life threatning episode).

Ivan Seeking

Originally posted by ranyart
The run-of-the-mill OBE, is where Quantum Conciousness and Reality cross paths, inside the mind of a subject that has a traumatic experience(most often a life threatning episode)...

This is a very interesting idea! [6)]

First I was wondering about the source of this hypothesis?

Next, using this explanation, how do we address the issue of memory formation and conscious thought both happening during periods of time that a person has no measurable brain function?

ranyart

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
This is a very interesting idea! [6)]

First I was wondering about the source of this hypothesis?

Next, using this explanation, how do we address the issue of memory formation and conscious thought both happening during periods of time that a person has no measurable brain function?

username

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
A few groups have done this in cardiac units. To my knowledge no one has ever read the secret information. Still, in other examples people can describe events and details of a procedure that took place while they had no measurable brain function.

Edit: The last time I heard anything definite about the cardiac units, I don't think any patients had claimed a near death experience in the right place and time so as to qualify.

Well just watching TV ATM it seems a credible researcher has published quite a few papers on this subject (European Journal of Parapsychology) see:
http://psy.gu.se/Personal/AdrianParker.htm

Have not read much up on it myself yet but somebody might find the information useful.

zoobyshoe

People,

The out of body experience is
what is called a Simple Partial
Seizure.

Simple is a term applied
by nerologists to describe seizures during which conscious-
ness remains intact. It distinguishes from a Complex partial seizure
during which there is a defect of
consciousness. Partial
refers to the fact that the complete brain is not involved as
it is in a Generalized
seizure.

During the "out-of-body" simple
partial seizure the person is
experiencing hypersynchronous
firing of the neurons in the part
of the brain where the sence of
Proprioception is governed.

This leaves the person void of any
ability to sence the position of
his or her own body. Suddenly
deprived of a sence they didn't
even know they had generally
results in the brain doing its
best to account for the completely
convincing sensation of floating
by hallucinating themselves to
be positioned where it feels like
they are positioned i.e. hovering
in the room somewhere.

People interested in the subject
of out-of-body experiences should
do a thorough search on the sence
of Proprioception, Neuro
aesthetics and the subject of
Simple Partial Seizures.

Ivan,

The buzzing you reported, as well
as the intense fear, are both com-
mon simple partial seizure symptoms. The intense fear, espec-
cially, is mentioned with remark-
able frequency. It is caused by
seizure activity spreading to
two very important troublemakers
we all have in our brains called
theAmygdali. They are part
of the Limbic System where the
physiological manifestations of
emotion are generated.

The fear you felt was probably
on the order of ten times the
intensity of any fear you've felt
in response to actual threats and
the strange thing is that there
was nothing real to be afraid of.

Here is a short page on the amygdala:

amygdala
Address:http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/amygdala.htm [o)]

Ivan Seeking

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
People,

The out of body experience is
what is called a Simple Partial
Seizure.

Simple is a term applied
by nerologists to describe seizures during which conscious-
ness remains intact. It distinguishes from a Complex partial seizure
during which there is a defect of
consciousness. Partial
refers to the fact that the complete brain is not involved as
it is in a Generalized
seizure.

During the "out-of-body" simple
partial seizure the person is
experiencing hypersynchronous
firing of the neurons in the part
of the brain where the sence of
Proprioception is governed.

This leaves the person void of any
ability to sence the position of
his or her own body. Suddenly
deprived of a sence they didn't
even know they had generally
results in the brain doing its
best to account for the completely
convincing sensation of floating
by hallucinating themselves to
be positioned where it feels like
they are positioned i.e. hovering
in the room somewhere.

People interested in the subject
of out-of-body experiences should
do a thorough search on the sence
of Proprioception, Neuro
aesthetics and the subject of
Simple Partial Seizures.

Zooby, For some reason I never saw this response.

This seems to ignore the measurable lack of brain function at the time of many NDE, OBEs. This just came up in the other thread Out of body experiences and astral traveling

Ivan,

The buzzing you reported, as well
as the intense fear, are both com-
mon simple partial seizure symptoms. The intense fear, espec-
cially, is mentioned with remark-
able frequency. It is caused by
seizure activity spreading to
two very important troublemakers
we all have in our brains called
theAmygdali. They are part
of the Limbic System where the
physiological manifestations of
emotion are generated.

The fear you felt was probably
on the order of ten times the
intensity of any fear you've felt
in response to actual threats and
the strange thing is that there
was nothing real to be afraid of.

Here is a short page on the amygdala:

amygdala
Address:http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/amygdala.htm [o)] [/B]

How does one cause a seizure by concentrating? This is repeatable on demand.

zoobyshoe

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking Zooby, For some reason I never saw this response.
This seems to ignore the measurable lack of brain function at the time of many NDE, OBEs. This just came up in the other thread Out of body experiences and astral traveling

As far as the lack of brain function at NDE, I haven't read anything on this subject, and can't comment, except to say that surface EEG's are very limited in how deeply they can sence activity.

For the same reason, you would almost always expect to find an EEG negative for seizure activity in someone who was not near death but having a Simple Partial Seizure with hallucinations of floating and autoscopy. This article by Dr. Devinsky shows that in one study only 21% of simple partials showed up on the surface EEG:

1: Neurology. 1988 Sep;38(9):1347-52. Related Articles, Links
Clinical and electroencephalographic features of simple partial seizures.
Devinsky O, Kelley K, Porter RJ, Theodore WH. Medical Neurology Branch, NINCDS, Bethesda, MD 20892.

The clinical and electroencephalographic features of 87 simple partial seizures in 14 patients were studied with video-EEG telemetry. The patients were able to respond to verbal stimuli during all seizures and, later, could clearly recall ictal events. To determine whether the EEG changes in simple partial seizures could be reliably observed, a reader blindly reviewed four EEGs of equal duration for each seizure. These EEGs consisted of one ictal and three nonictal recordings obtained at predetermined times before the seizure. There were 27 motor seizures (mean duration, 86 seconds; range, 2 to 250 seconds), all involving clonic movements of the head and/or upper extremities; 8 (30%) of these had a sensory component (pain in 6, paresthesia in 2). An EEG change, usually localized spikes or sharp waves over the contralateral or both rolandic regions, was identifiable in nine (33%) of the motor seizures. The 60 nonmotor seizures (mean duration, 63 seconds; range, 8 to 375 seconds) involved a variety of symptoms, including somatosensory/special sensory (3 seizures), autonomic (26 seizures), cognitive (1 seizure), affective (14 seizures), and mixed, or more than one category of nonmotor symptoms (16 seizures). In only nine (15%) of the nonmotor seizures was there an ictal EEG change, usually localized spikes or paroxysmal theta activity over the temporal region. Overall, among the 87 simple partial seizures, only 18 (21%) revealed ictal EEG changes. Thus, a normal EEG is common during simple partial seizures and does not exclude the diagnosis.

How does one cause a seizure by concentrating? This is repeatable on demand.

From this article on reflex epilepsy:eMedicine - Reflex Epilepsy : Article by Joseph F Hulihan, MD
Address:http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic687.htm

comes this:

Seizures induced by thinking: Cognitive processes have been reported to induce seizures in susceptible persons. Initially described during the performance of mathematical calculations, the seizures also may be produced by processing spatial information or by other forms of decision making. Reflex seizures have been described as a result of playing chess or checkers, also likely due to the cognitive processes involved in playing these games.

How doesn't seem to be known. One person in the article suggests a model, but that's all it is. The forms of reflex seizure seem unlimited. A person who can induce a Simple Partial with hallucinations of autoscopy and floating at will might be doing so in reflex to a large number of stimuli, not merely thinking. You would have to take a look at whatever it is they do to induce it.

Ivan Seeking

Well, I don't know. Are you aware of any expert OBEr's who have agreed with these interpretations. Just because a sensation or sense can be replicated to some extent, this does not mean that all other experiences are the result of some brain frenzy. This only shows that some aspects of the experience can be duplicated. For example, I can have an auditory hallucination, but that does not mean that all sounds are imagined.

This also assumes that the scientist is in the head of the experiencer so to speak; that he can give a full accounting of the experience. Obviously he can't. So unless we have someone who is well versed in the art of OBEs, or that has had an intense NDE, and that was also induced to have a seizure of this type, I don't see how we can know that one experience has anything to do with the other. I know that the people who's lives were forever changed by a NDE do not accept these kinds of ideas. They claim that in no way do the clinical descriptions agree with their personal experiences.

Also, OBE's can be learned - I am not aware of any uniques issues except for a few people who never have any success.

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RuroumiKenshin	This should be in the mysitics forum. not in the theoretical physics forum.

Ploegman	I can see what you mean, it could go either way however. My post was asking about the possibilities of this having to do with the fourth dimension or another dimension, along with others. Alternate dimensions, be it spacial or spiritual are all theoretical, so it could also go under the theoretical physics forum.

Alexander	Out-Of-Body Experience! Actually it should be in "How to capitalize on people who believe in supertitions" forum.

username	Well you could devise an experiment of sorts by giving the patient some exotic drug like ketamine to try and induce an OBE then you would place a screen between the patient and some unknown object on the other side so the patient could only see the object from say above his/her body. Anybody want to be my patient lol :)

ranyart	The run-of-the-mill OBE, is where Quantum Conciousness and Reality cross paths, inside the mind of a subject that has a traumatic experience(most often a life threatning episode).