Register to reply

Burning salt water for fuel?

by Evo
Tags: burning, fuel, salt, water
Share this thread:
Evo
#1
Sep11-07, 05:48 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,422
Does anyone think anything will come from this?

Radio frequencies help burn salt water

ERIE, Pa. - An Erie cancer researcher has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by one chemist as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century.

John Kanzius happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.

The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, has held demonstrations at his State College lab to confirm his own observations.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070910/...rning_seawater
Phys.Org News Partner Science news on Phys.org
New model helps explain how provisions promote or reduce wildlife disease
Stress can make hard-working mongooses less likely to help in the future
Grammatical habits in written English reveal linguistic features of non-native speakers' languages
LeonhardEuler
#2
Sep11-07, 06:03 PM
PF Gold
LeonhardEuler's Avatar
P: 864
I saw this in the news and searched here to see what has been said about it:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...ght=water+burn

It seems that what's happening is that the RF beam separates the water into H and O, which is then combined back into water in a flame. Of course, you wouldn't get any energy out of the process: you have to use more energy in the RF generator than is given off as heat over the flame. I'm surprised how no one mentions this in the article. It seems clear that this process can not have a net generation of useful energy.
Chi Meson
#3
Sep11-07, 06:40 PM
Sci Advisor
HW Helper
Chi Meson's Avatar
P: 1,772
It's been discussed, and dismissed, here.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=172018

Evo
#4
Sep11-07, 06:51 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,422
Burning salt water for fuel?

Thanks, nothing came up when I searched.
zoobyshoe
#5
Sep11-07, 06:57 PM
zoobyshoe's Avatar
P: 5,625
Quote Quote by LeonhardEuler View Post
I saw this in the news and searched here to see what has been said about it:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...ght=water+burn

It seems that what's happening is that the RF beam separates the water into H and O, which is then combined back into water in a flame. Of course, you wouldn't get any energy out of the process: you have to use more energy in the RF generator than is given off as heat over the flame. I'm surprised how no one mentions this in the article. It seems clear that this process can not have a net generation of useful energy.
Actually, it would have fantastic potential as a desalinization method. The burned H and 0 would be pure water and the heat generated could be used to help generate more radio waves.
edward
#6
Sep11-07, 06:59 PM
PF Gold
edward's Avatar
P: 873
Quote Quote by Evo View Post
Thanks, nothing came up when I searched.
OH NO I just filled my gas tank up with salt water and strapped an old radio to it.
Kurdt
#7
Sep11-07, 07:02 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 4,982
I've been constantly amazed in all these water energy claims how nobody ever mentions the fact that one needs energy to split the molecule and unless your process is 100% efficient you will lose energy. There is no way you will ever gain any. The same with perpetual motion machines. Unless the process is 100% efficient it can't be perpetual and even then if you extract energy from the system it will eventually stop. So whatever is used to set the thing off may as well be used as the source of energy generation.
Evo
#8
Sep11-07, 07:03 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,422
Disclaimer: PF is not responsible for news articles linked to from this site.

On the positive side, you now have a musical fish tank.
edward
#9
Sep11-07, 07:04 PM
PF Gold
edward's Avatar
P: 873
Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
Actually, it would have fantastic potential as a desalinization method. The burned H and 0 would be pure water and the heat generated could be used to help generate more radio waves.

You may just have something there. From salt water to fresh water in a flash. And solar could also be used to generate RF.
Astronuc
#10
Sep11-07, 07:07 PM
Admin
Astronuc's Avatar
P: 21,806
Radio frequencies help burn salt water
I cringe when I see headlines like that. It's the hydrogen that burns, and the hydrogen comes from dissociated water. Electrolysis has been used to achieve the same result, so I don't see this as a necessarily new discovery.

I imagine there's probably some chlorine gas and HCl around as well, and with H gone, the water would become more alkaline.


I imagine the energy lost producing the microwaves and then lost in the dissociation process make for an inefficient process. The objective for hydrogen production is to have a fuel that can be transported or used in a tranportation process. Burning hydrogen at the source would be a wasteful use of energy. It would make more sense to collect the hydrogen in an inert carrier gas for storage or chemical synthesis.

The overall scheme might be worthwhile if solar energy is used as the top level source of energy, but converting solar energy to microwaves may not be practical.

Roy has been around a long time, and I remember his work for nuclear waste processing and waste forms from the 70's and 80's. He certainly knows how to get funding.

http://www.rustumroy.com/
Ivan Seeking
#11
Sep11-07, 08:01 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Ivan Seeking's Avatar
P: 12,497
Geez, I jumped online and found two emails about this. Then I find two threads about it here.

The generation of microwaves is a little over 60% efficient. Then you have the coupling to the water, and dissociation. I would bet that you would never do better than 30 or 40% efficient overall.

Electrolysis is about 50% efficient in practice, so it seems very doubtful that this process would have an advanatage.
Chi Meson
#12
Sep11-07, 08:13 PM
Sci Advisor
HW Helper
Chi Meson's Avatar
P: 1,772
Quote Quote by Astronuc View Post
Roy has been around a long time, and I remember his work for nuclear waste processing and waste forms from the 70's and 80's. He certainly knows how to get funding.

http://www.rustumroy.com/
Rustum Roy appears to be a bona fide chemistry professor. Is he running a sham for funding? Or has he never stumbled upon the laws of thermodynamics? Or is it possible that there could be something there? Specifically, is there more than just the hydrogen burning?

I just find it incredible that a university professor would risk his credibility on a PPM. Or am I naive?
Ivan Seeking
#13
Sep11-07, 08:16 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Ivan Seeking's Avatar
P: 12,497
Is he interested in the energy or the process?
edward
#14
Sep11-07, 08:29 PM
PF Gold
edward's Avatar
P: 873
OK then I can see where this concept may show up on late night Television informercials..

Join the thousands who are making money burning salt water in their own homes.

Receive our exclusive patent pending guide book Only $19.95 plus shipping and handling

But wait !! call now and receive a pint sized bottle of monkey urine absolutely free.

HOLD ON!! Call In The next five minutes and also receive our free recipes for cooking with monkey urine over hydrogen

That's the Guide book, the monkey urine plus the recipe book a $200 value for only $19.95

CALL 1-800-EVO-HOME immediately


am I in trouble or what?
Evo
#15
Sep11-07, 08:31 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,422
He seems to have a number of papers concerning microwaves. Perhaps that is his interest.
Evo
#16
Sep11-07, 08:33 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,422
Quote Quote by edward View Post
OK then I can see where this concept may show up on late night Television informercials..

Join the thousands who are making money burning salt water in their own homes.

Receive our exclusive patent pending guide book Only $19.95 plus shipping and handling

But wait !! call now and receive a pint sized bottle of monkey urine absolutely free.

HOLD ON!! Call In The next five minutes and also receive our free recipes for cooking with monkey urine over hydrogen

That's the Guide book, the monkey urine plus the recipe book a $200 value for only $19.95

CALL 1-800-EVO-HOME immediately


am I in trouble or what?
You're in trouble, it's possum urine, monkey urine just sounds more exotic.
edward
#17
Sep11-07, 08:39 PM
PF Gold
edward's Avatar
P: 873
Quote Quote by Evo View Post
He seems to have a number of papers concerning microwaves. Perhaps that is his interest.
He has a patent on: Method and apparatus for microwave phosphor synthesis
edward
#18
Sep11-07, 08:42 PM
PF Gold
edward's Avatar
P: 873
Quote Quote by Evo View Post
You're in trouble, it's possum urine, monkey urine just sounds more exotic.

You are such a good sport, I just could't resist. I'm tring to wind down from a long day.


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Burning Salt Chemistry 6
Ethanol Fuel from Corn Faulted as ‘Unsustainable Subsidized Food Burning’ General Engineering 12
Salt water fuel Introductory Physics Homework 1
BTU Q's about burning water vs. burning gassoline... Chemistry 3
Fresh water eels adaptation to Salt water Biology 4