# Burning salt water for fuel?

by Evo
Tags: burning, fuel, salt, water
Mentor
P: 25,745
Does anyone think anything will come from this?

 Radio frequencies help burn salt water ERIE, Pa. - An Erie cancer researcher has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by one chemist as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century. John Kanzius happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn. The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel. Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, has held demonstrations at his State College lab to confirm his own observations.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070910/...rning_seawater
 PF Gold P: 864 I saw this in the news and searched here to see what has been said about it: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...ght=water+burn It seems that what's happening is that the RF beam separates the water into H and O, which is then combined back into water in a flame. Of course, you wouldn't get any energy out of the process: you have to use more energy in the RF generator than is given off as heat over the flame. I'm surprised how no one mentions this in the article. It seems clear that this process can not have a net generation of useful energy.
 Sci Advisor HW Helper P: 1,772 It's been discussed, and dismissed, here. http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=172018
Mentor
P: 25,745

## Burning salt water for fuel?

Thanks, nothing came up when I searched.
P: 5,611
 Quote by LeonhardEuler I saw this in the news and searched here to see what has been said about it: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...ght=water+burn It seems that what's happening is that the RF beam separates the water into H and O, which is then combined back into water in a flame. Of course, you wouldn't get any energy out of the process: you have to use more energy in the RF generator than is given off as heat over the flame. I'm surprised how no one mentions this in the article. It seems clear that this process can not have a net generation of useful energy.
Actually, it would have fantastic potential as a desalinization method. The burned H and 0 would be pure water and the heat generated could be used to help generate more radio waves.
PF Gold
P: 861
 Quote by Evo Thanks, nothing came up when I searched.
OH NO I just filled my gas tank up with salt water and strapped an old radio to it.
 Emeritus Sci Advisor PF Gold P: 4,975 I've been constantly amazed in all these water energy claims how nobody ever mentions the fact that one needs energy to split the molecule and unless your process is 100% efficient you will lose energy. There is no way you will ever gain any. The same with perpetual motion machines. Unless the process is 100% efficient it can't be perpetual and even then if you extract energy from the system it will eventually stop. So whatever is used to set the thing off may as well be used as the source of energy generation.
 Mentor P: 25,745 Disclaimer: PF is not responsible for news articles linked to from this site. On the positive side, you now have a musical fish tank.
PF Gold
P: 861
 Quote by zoobyshoe Actually, it would have fantastic potential as a desalinization method. The burned H and 0 would be pure water and the heat generated could be used to help generate more radio waves.

You may just have something there. From salt water to fresh water in a flash. And solar could also be used to generate RF.
P: 21,597
 Radio frequencies help burn salt water
I cringe when I see headlines like that. It's the hydrogen that burns, and the hydrogen comes from dissociated water. Electrolysis has been used to achieve the same result, so I don't see this as a necessarily new discovery.

I imagine there's probably some chlorine gas and HCl around as well, and with H gone, the water would become more alkaline.

I imagine the energy lost producing the microwaves and then lost in the dissociation process make for an inefficient process. The objective for hydrogen production is to have a fuel that can be transported or used in a tranportation process. Burning hydrogen at the source would be a wasteful use of energy. It would make more sense to collect the hydrogen in an inert carrier gas for storage or chemical synthesis.

The overall scheme might be worthwhile if solar energy is used as the top level source of energy, but converting solar energy to microwaves may not be practical.

Roy has been around a long time, and I remember his work for nuclear waste processing and waste forms from the 70's and 80's. He certainly knows how to get funding.

http://www.rustumroy.com/
 Emeritus Sci Advisor PF Gold P: 12,490 Geez, I jumped online and found two emails about this. Then I find two threads about it here. The generation of microwaves is a little over 60% efficient. Then you have the coupling to the water, and dissociation. I would bet that you would never do better than 30 or 40% efficient overall. Electrolysis is about 50% efficient in practice, so it seems very doubtful that this process would have an advanatage.
HW Helper
P: 1,772
 Quote by Astronuc Roy has been around a long time, and I remember his work for nuclear waste processing and waste forms from the 70's and 80's. He certainly knows how to get funding. http://www.rustumroy.com/
Rustum Roy appears to be a bona fide chemistry professor. Is he running a sham for funding? Or has he never stumbled upon the laws of thermodynamics? Or is it possible that there could be something there? Specifically, is there more than just the hydrogen burning?

I just find it incredible that a university professor would risk his credibility on a PPM. Or am I naive?
 Emeritus Sci Advisor PF Gold P: 12,490 Is he interested in the energy or the process?
 PF Gold P: 861 OK then I can see where this concept may show up on late night Television informercials.. Join the thousands who are making money burning salt water in their own homes. Receive our exclusive patent pending guide book Only $19.95 plus shipping and handling But wait !! call now and receive a pint sized bottle of monkey urine absolutely free. HOLD ON!! Call In The next five minutes and also receive our free recipes for cooking with monkey urine over hydrogen That's the Guide book, the monkey urine plus the recipe book a$200 value for only $19.95 CALL 1-800-EVO-HOME immediately am I in trouble or what?  Mentor P: 25,745 He seems to have a number of papers concerning microwaves. Perhaps that is his interest. Mentor P: 25,745  Quote by edward OK then I can see where this concept may show up on late night Television informercials.. Join the thousands who are making money burning salt water in their own homes. Receive our exclusive patent pending guide book Only$19.95 plus shipping and handling But wait !! call now and receive a pint sized bottle of monkey urine absolutely free. HOLD ON!! Call In The next five minutes and also receive our free recipes for cooking with monkey urine over hydrogen That's the Guide book, the monkey urine plus the recipe book a $200 value for only$19.95 CALL 1-800-EVO-HOME immediately am I in trouble or what?
You're in trouble, it's possum urine, monkey urine just sounds more exotic.
PF Gold
P: 861
 Quote by Evo He seems to have a number of papers concerning microwaves. Perhaps that is his interest.
He has a patent on: Method and apparatus for microwave phosphor synthesis
PF Gold
P: 861
 Quote by Evo You're in trouble, it's possum urine, monkey urine just sounds more exotic.

You are such a good sport, I just could't resist. I'm tring to wind down from a long day.

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