Black Women-White Men

LydiaAC

Hello Trainer5:
What it is happening in this thread is that we are trying to treat a social situation as a scientific problem. When doing so, it is very easy to offend people.
The argued reason for black women dating white men could be right or wrong. If you see the case for this explanation excessively weak, it is natural that you want to call it absurd or even stupid, but this is only a very emotional way to say "wrong".
You talk us about your personal experience and that is very interesting because experience is the base of knowledge. However, social trends cannot be evaluated only in the basis of one personal experience.
That is the nerd's dilemma. Must I use the scientific method only to understand the physical world but not the social world? I do not think so. Social problems are so great that they deserve to be treated with the best method, the scientific method.
The problem is that the scientific method requires to set hypothesis, which not all of them would be good ones. We must try and fail. We could say a lot of stupidities in our search for an answer. Nevertheless, to be creative and give a chance to a lot of different possibilities is what makes an "open mind", not the opposite.
LydiaAC

Monique

I think it is wrong to relate 'interracial' dating with criminal statistics, it would be the same as relating homosexuality with criminal statistics. If you want to find out why people are dating outside their 'race', which I already find stupid and narrow minded, then you need to find out more about those couples and not throw some random statistic at it.

Ivan Seeking

If you look, you will see that we are talking about numbers like one out of three young black men [with criminal histories]. For professional and upwardly mobile black women who don't want to date a person with criminal history, this certainly does narrow the field. And the OP began with testimony supporting the claim.

Ivan Seeking

You may find it stupid and narrow minded, but it may be a fact nonetheless. There is no group in the US that compares to young black men in regards to legal problems. It is a huge problem here.

marcus

Ivan this is an absolutely great thread!
A wizard thread with sizzle. good for the SocialSci forum.
But frankly what are you driving at?
professional upward mobile black women will date whoever including non-blacks and more power to them. it is their business.

so what is the problem? Aren't you really pointing at the system of criminal justice and the correctional institutions in our country? Maybe I misunderstood the real thrust of your opening post.

Ivan Seeking

Actually, it began with a CNN report about black women who are dating white men because of a lack of eligible black men. But it does ultimately speak to the problems of young black men and what can be done.

For those who sense a racist bias, it is anything but that. I grew up with gang-bangers. I understand and am highly sensitive to the problems of poor black families. But pretending its not a problem is simply wishful thinking. The article cited helps to accentuate this fact.

marcus

Ivan, in honor of the fact that this is a cool thread, I will confer on it some utterly outrageous out-of-box thinking. Let's look at the situation from the point of view of an hypothetical RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST who believes the current situation (with its several facets both dating and incarceration) is part of the Divine Plan.

God clearly must want the races in America to intermingle because he has seen to it that we raise lots of black and latino kids in situations conducive to bad education high drugs and high crime and getting put away---leading lots of upward mobile black and latino women to date white guys! The Divine Plan is for them to date and get married and have lots of interracial interethnic babies. So let us offer...

A MODEST PROPOSAL

Let's carry out the Divine Plan even quicker and speed things up by arranging even more drug, gang, criminal behavior and putting EVEN MORE black and latino guys in jail, so even more of the women will date white guys and there will be even more mixed-race babies, which is God's obvious Will.

Ivan Seeking

Many people probably won't like my solution: Legalize drugs.

Why would a 16 year old boy in Watts take a minimum wage job when he can make up to $1000 a day selling drugs? This has always been the problem. And they already do it under threat of death from other gangs, not to mention the threat from the police, so its not like laws make any difference.

An interesting observation from a recent documentary: Blacks were making great strides, and life for blacks had, on the average, continually improved since the civil war, until the late sixties/ early seventies when drugs became popular. At that point, in many respects, the progress was halted.

late edits:

Ivan Seeking

There is also a culture of hopelessness to be overcome. And I must say, I think Obama has changed everything! Did anyone else follow the comments of black civil rights leaders at the Democratic National Convention [and elsewhere]. I doubt that there was one dry eye among them. And many blacks, young and old alike, have admitted that they simply can't believe what is happening. I have literally been reduced to tears a number of times just by listening to them talk.

In spite of my personal exposure to the problems discussed, it was a political science professor who really set me straight on all of this: A young person must believe that they can have a future before they will be willing to work for it.

Astronuc

That's it right there. Too many folks are shut out.

russ_watters

Who'se responsibility is it to generate that belief?

russ_watters

While that is a very common belief, it just plain isn't true. I don't have the book here (I read my dad's copy), but Freakonomics has a chapter on the operation of drug dealing gangs in Chicago (based on a grad student who essentially joined one). People see the handful of rich drug dealers and see that there is money to be made, but the fact of the matter is that the the "foot soldiers" make very little. The researcher found that both the structure and the economics were very similar to how a fast-food restaurant works. He got himself hooked-up with a small branch (like a McD franchise) with a handful of foot soldiers (the burger flippers) and a leader (the store manager). The leader of the group was a college grad in his mid 20's and he made something like $40-$60k. The foot soldiers made roughly half of minimum wage. Here's some excerpts from the chapter: http://freakonomicsbook.com/thebook/ch3.html

Regardless, that's evidence of the problem you mention in your next post (the belief problem).

lonton

Yes, implication may be more meaningful than a traditional advice.

Ivan Seeking

I agree completely in that the reality of the drug world doesn't meet expectations, but it is the promise of money based on a few big scores that gets kids involved. And they are often drawn into this with malicious intent. But it is also about the culture that it creates, just as we saw with the prohibition on alcohol. Gangs literally run the neighborhoods because they make a fortune selling illegal drugs. MS13 has been so successful that they are now operating in a good number of countries.

The drug laws don't work and they make the problem worse.

But that isn't the point of this thread. That is just my perspective on one aspect of the problem. And my Conservative hero William F Buckley happened to agree, so I must be right.

Ivan Seeking

Are you asking where to point or how to help?

russ_watters

Huh? I asked exactly what I asked. But I'll rephrase: Who is responsible for fixing the "culture of hopelessness"?

marcus

I think it is a reasonable question, and provocative. Responsibility is an interesting ethical concept---the root meaning is probably something like "who must answer?"
"whose job is on the line if it doesn't get fixed?"
"who has some explaining to do?"
"who will be blamed by History if things screw up bigtime?"

Isn't that the etymological root idea? Who has to respond. Who will be held accountable.

We can list various possibilities. I'm not sure if the problem is adequately described by saying culture of hopelessness, but for discussion sake let's say hopelessness is the problem and consider who might be held responsible:

the hopeless individual is responsible for generating hope within himself (he should be smart enough to realize that if he works and obeys the law he can get a better life)

his parents are responsible----his mother should have practiced abstinence, or taught him good work habits. Or else his grandmother, if she raised him, is the one responsible.

the minister of the church his grandmother goes to is responsible. It is a minister's job to teach people hope, and instill in them a desire to live orderly productive lives.

black women are responsible---they should only smile at boys who get good grades in school and stay out of trouble----they should only date young fellows who attend junior college and study business accounting. this would reform the neighborhood overnight*.

the politicians are responsible---they should make speeches to encourage hard work and set up various incentive programs. They shouldn't coddle people. If society collapses, they will be blamed by History. If problems get even worse they might lose their jobs.

there really isn't a problem, so no one is responsible. It is just Darwinian evolution and the Free Market taking their natural course---we can isolate the patches of vice and squalor by building various sorts of walls, and let natural processes deal with whatever is inside the walls. Perhaps there will be a plague.

Does anyone have other notions of how responsibility might be shared in this matter?

*See the post #25 by Trainer
http://physicsforums.com/showthread....82#post1871682
She says "I love educated, hard working, intelligent men regardless of their color." This should be an inspiration to us all. (seriously)