easy question: why don't electrons spin into the nucleus?

STAii

Umm ... not the same.
The electron is electrically charged, the moon is not.

Sometimes you find the answers where you don't expect them.
See this PF topic

Tom Mattson

It is close enough.

The electron is electrically charged, and it the electric force that keeps it in orbit.

The moon is "gravitationally charged" (IOW, it has mass), and it is the force of gravity tht keeps it in orbit.

STAii

I know Tom, this is not what i meant.
What i meant is that an moving electrically charged body will produce an electromagnetic wave (well, at least this is what they thought to be always true in the old days), while a moving gravitationally charged body will not produce any kind of wave that may take energy from it (at least not till the thoeries of today, and not till we find clues of Gravitons).

damgo

Actually they will... gravitational waves! Decays of binary star systems have been observed, and the rate matches that predicted for energy loss via gravitational radiation. However, gravitational waves are suppressed to a greater degree than EM waves: only the quadrupole and greater moments survive. To a first approximation, the power loss for a slow two-body system is P~2/5 * G^4 * M^5 / r^5. Most GR books derive this; also the first decaying system observed was PSR1913+16 and Hulse&Taylor got a Nobel in 1993 for finding it.

STAii

You need gravitons to have gravitional waves ... right ?
And ... we didn't proove the existance of gravitons yet ... right ?

damgo

Naaa, it's a complete classical GR effect. Just like you don't need to know about photons to study EM waves.

brum

the earth is being pulled towards the sun by the sun's gravity


so, wouldn't that be like one of those round curved things at museums where you put a penny in on the side and the penny slides around and around and around and around and faster and faster and closer to the center .... because it curves towards the center (a hole) and so the penny gradually comes to the center, gets faster and faster, and then drops down the hole

or does the massive velocity of the Earth help to keep it from falling in towards the sun?

exactly what causes it from falling into the sun?
and i guess the same goes for the moon to Earth, etc.

edit: couple typos

it just seems to me that since spacetime is curved, the satellite (earth, moon, whatever) naturally falls into the source of the gravity

drag

Greetings NEOclassic !
Thank you for correcting possible misunderstandings
that could arouze from what I wrote. I'm not in any
way an expert in the field. However, of course
that I was talking about probability of finding
the electrons in the orbitals, and I appologize
if I mislead someone by my shortened description.

As for the Pauli Exclusion Principle, I'm not certain
what came first so I'll take your expert word
for it. I would like to ask though :
Doesn't QM "force" the PEP to exist - as a natural
result from the theory (even if that's not the way it
was discovered) ?
Thanks.

"Does dice play God ?"

Live long and prosper.

Eyesee

Hi,

our solar system has a fixed number of large masses so I can kind of see how the Earth and other planets can reach an equilibrium but it seems that in the atomic world, the system is changing all the time. Gases in the atmosphere for example are moving around all the time. Now, how do electrons reach an equlibrium here? If there were new planets moving in and out of our solar system, I would not expect the orbits of the Earth or any of the planets to be in equlibrium.

bogdan

well...the exchange photons and move to new "orbits"...fixed...

NEOclassic

Let me explain why classic modeling accepts the like-charge two-electron quantum orbital as intrinsic and as permanent as “forever” unless a given orbital is removed (i.e., decoupled as with the breaking of intra-molecular bonding of atoms where the orbital is only temporary because of the absence of a strong central nuclear field) from the atomic kernel where it would rapidly fly apart becoming two independent free electrons. E.g., consider the single iron atom nested in the four nitrogen atoms centered in the square-planar hemoglobin molecule in your blood; the kernel of that atom – the Argon structure (i.e. excluding the valence electrons which are available for variation of chemical behavior of the iron atom); that particular atom was created somewhere in the heart of the Milky Way, some 6 billion years ago, and after it completes its mission in your blood it remains intrinsically alive forever in the future.
The upshot is that the QM like-charge orbital was the natural property of matter creation. PEP is really only Pauli’s recognition of QM’s intrinsic property. Calling the orbital a “standing wave” because it does not radiate is merely a patch the QED folk use to obfuscate the reality that the orbital is two electrons following each other at high speed that is locked-in permanently. It is true that the “wave nature”, although not radiative, is possibly determined on the basis of the frequency of rotation of the orbital loop. Note: the moving charges of the loop current do cause a magnetic force field normal to the plane of the loop that is exactly countered by the torque caused by the centrifugal force due to angular momentum of the two electron masses. Thanks for your audience. Only the messenger, Jim

drag

Greetings NEOclassic !

Thank you for such a full and informative answer
(though I must admit that it's partially "beyond" me).
So, basicly what you're saying is that the answer is yes,
right ?

"Does dice play God ?"

Live long and prosper.

dock

F=force
R=distance
the electron doesn't fall on the proton cause FRR has to be constant. if the electron fall anyway then R=0 but F=(+/-)infinity thus the electron becomes highly unstable. On the other hand FdR has to be positive i.e. the force shifts the object it acts upon in the same direction of the force vector. it is the most basic principle of dynamics according to mua. that's what Newton should have said in his second law instead F=ma where the last equation is wrong again according to mua. since F=(+/-)infinity and FdR>0 follows that dR<>0 thus the electron leaves this unstable location right away.
Arguments Against Modern Physics

Eyesee

What is a "Qm like-charge orbital"?

NEOclassic

Hi Eyesee,

QM means Quantum Mechanics, which is that branch of physics that deals with the nature of those many electrons that surround an atomic nucleus. Because valence electrons are not paired up (until stable molecules happen that form quantum pairings that chemists call “bonds” that are actually extra-nuclear quantum-orbitals) they do not behave in the orbital manner of the non-valence “kernel-orbitals”. While a single electron charge could easily move in a loop, its intrinsic buddies, mass and spin, present a problem in stabilizing that loop (as with a play-ground teeter-totter); so nature demands a balancing mass be inserted diametrically opposite which completes the quantum orbital. Or does it? Didn’t Pauli postulate that something else was necessary to overcome the electrostatic repulsion of the two like-charges in the loop? To early classic physicists spin-flip was the obvious answer until someone observed that the balance of spin inertia, while important in a minor way, was much too feeble to overcome electrostatic repulsion. All that was therefore available was a different view of the novel electrodynamic notion that the intrinsically spinning charge of each electron rendered it a small dipolar “bar-magnet” which was extremely attractive to its neighbor when spin-flipped. The reason why I refer to the two negative electrons in the loop as a “like-charged orbital” is because of the revelation, discovered in the thirties, that in the electron/positron delayed annihilation process, the opposite-charges of the electrons satisfied, per se, the Pauli Exclusion Principle, thus freeing the magnetic spin orientations as a matter of arbitrary selection. [That’s why there are two differing positroniums, singlet and triplet.]

Incidentally, a survey of all the proton/deuteron/etc fragments discovered at the World’s atom smashers shows that all except photons, electrons and positrons decay in extremely short times to those three entities; important among the unstable particles is the only one smaller than the mu-meson which is called positronium.

Until this “unlike-charged orbital” is postulated as QM’s mass-enhanceable sub-nucleonic building block, the current Standard Model will likely continue to be fatally flawed. Thanks for your audience, Only The Messenger – Jim.

"Logic is easy when done Nature's way."

Eyesee

Hi,

very nice explanation. You are saying that it is the different spins of the electrons in addition to the attractive magnetic field generated by its spinning that stabilizes the electrons inside the atoms? That may well work for multiple electron atoms, but what about the hydrogen atom? Are hydrogen atoms stable in isolation or do their electrons fall into the nucleus? If they are stable then the different spins of the electrons wouldn't explain it, right?

NEOclassic

Hi again I.C.,

What I meant was "that opposite spins of the electrons ARE magnetically attractive as contrasted with parallel spins which are magnetically repulsive."

About the hydrogen atom with its unpaired valence type electron let me direct you to Feynman Notes, Chap 19, Vol. III where indeed his thought-experiment places the single uncoupled electron as subject to the Heisenberg dumbbell shaped probabilities (I think he calls these amplitudes) and which are not visible in the ground state (the magnetic dipoles are coaxial with the electrostatic attraction between proton and electron being countered by the magnetic poles of the two being directed repulsively by like-magnetic poles facing each other) because there must be excitement of the electron in order for Planck incremental photo radiation frequencies to occur. Nature’s lab in the photosphere, chromosphere, corona of the Sun shows a few of the many Planck incremental excitement levels that are referred to as the “Balmer”, “Lyman”, and “Paschen” series.
Feynman’s thought experiment of the H2+ ion is not only quite nervous but is, similar to the H atom, not a quantum coupling, and whose “ground state” involves all three particles as being spin-wise coaxial with the central electron so oriented that like-magnetic poles prevail at each pole of the electron; thus limiting the electro- static tendency toward collapse. Thanks for your audience, Only the Messenger, Jim.

"Logic is easy when done Nature's way."