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Run Tisi, Run!

by Chen
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Chen
#19
Apr19-04, 08:36 AM
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I don't agree that this cycle of death is endless. I believe it can be ended by a mutual agreement signed by both parties, and I also believe that there are people on the Palestinian side that wish to reach such an agreement. However, these people are not doing enough. Maybe because they are afraid, I don't know. But if the Palestinian government wants peace, it needs to make some sacrifices. For example, fight the terror rather than help the Hamas. Last time we tried to make a temporary truce by both parties for a period of two weeks, it was violated by the Palestinians after a couple of days.

I know it sounds like a "he started it!" argument. And you are probably going to tell me that "one of you needs to rise above itself and end this fight". But this is not kindergarten, and we are not arguing over pieces of lego. The lives of many people, both Israeli and Palestinian, are hanging on the balance here. We can't just pull our forces out of there, nor can we stop our fight against terror, because Israeli citizens will lose their lives. Israeli fights terrorists to keep its citizens safe, whereas Palestinian terrorists murder people to sabotage any chance of peace.

I think the only way to end this is by cooperation, both militarily and politically. Israel also has its extremist that try to hurt the Arabs, but when was the last time you heard about an Israeli teenager walking into a Palestinian restaurant carrying a bomb? Over the last 20 years I can count the number of terrorist acts executed by Israeli extremists on just one of my hands. Two will not be enough to count the terrorist acts coming from Palestinian in the last month.



(By the way, it is nice to have an argument on this subject with intelligent people, for once. On most other forums that try to discuss these issues threads usually end in a flame war.)
master_coda
#20
Apr19-04, 09:06 AM
P: 678
Quote Quote by Chen
I don't agree that this cycle of death is endless. I believe it can be ended by a mutual agreement signed by both parties, and I also believe that there are people on the Palestinian side that wish to reach such an agreement. However, these people are not doing enough. Maybe because they are afraid, I don't know. But if the Palestinian government wants peace, it needs to make some sacrifices. For example, fight the terror rather than help the Hamas. Last time we tried to make a temporary truce by both parties for a period of two weeks, it was violated by the Palestinians after a couple of days.

I know it sounds like a "he started it!" argument. And you are probably going to tell me that "one of you needs to rise above itself and end this fight". But this is not kindergarten, and we are not arguing over pieces of lego. The lives of many people, both Israeli and Palestinian, are hanging on the balance here. We can't just pull our forces out of there, nor can we stop our fight against terror, because Israeli citizens will lose their lives. Israeli fights terrorists to keep its citizens safe, whereas Palestinian terrorists murder people to sabotage any chance of peace.

I think the only way to end this is by cooperation, both militarily and politically. Israel also has its extremist that try to hurt the Arabs, but when was the last time you heard about an Israeli teenager walking into a Palestinian restaurant carrying a bomb? Over the last 20 years I can count the number of terrorist acts executed by Israeli extremists on just one of my hands. Two will not be enough to count the terrorist acts coming from Palestinian in the last month.



(By the way, it is nice to have an argument on this subject with intelligent people, for once. On most other forums that try to discuss these issues threads usually end in a flame war.)
I think cooperation most certainly is the answer. But this is the problem with the killings, on both sides. On the surface, whenever someone is killed, it seems to "justify" the extremists. The desire for revenge that is generated is most readily satisified by people who advocate immediate retaliation, while cooperation is critisized as having failed.

While Israeli extremists don't use terrorism, that much is true...but I think that tends to be a matter of circumstance. They can kill the enemy without killing innocents. The terrorists can't. If they want to kill people for their cause, then they have to kill indiscriminatly.


To be completly honest, I don't really know how this situation is going to work out. Neither side can acheive military victory, at least not without resorting to genocide. Peaceful cooperation is the only real solution in my eyes, but that almost seems like wishful thinking...it only takes one terrorist to ruin it.
Chen
#21
Apr19-04, 09:38 AM
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I was trying to convey the feeling of "We are doing our job; now it's time that they do theirs". I can't see how anything new can happen until the Palestinian government takes control of the terrorists and at least tries to stop them.
master_coda
#22
Apr19-04, 09:58 AM
P: 678
Quote Quote by Chen
I was trying to convey the feeling of "We are doing our job; now it's time that they do theirs". I can't see how anything new can happen until the Palestinian government takes control of the terrorists and at least tries to stop them.
Of course, this highlights the optimial solution to the terrorists Israel is killing...it would be much better if they were aprehended and punished by the Palestininan government. Unfortunatly they seem to be too weak to do anything useful at all.
kat
#23
Apr19-04, 10:05 AM
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Quote Quote by master_coda
Of course, this highlights the optimial solution to the terrorists Israel is killing...it would be much better if they were aprehended and punished by the Palestininan government. Unfortunatly they seem to be too weak to do anything useful at all.
The terrorist are....members of the government....there is not this clear seperation you appear to believe there is.
master_coda
#24
Apr19-04, 10:20 AM
P: 678
Quote Quote by kat
The terrorist are....members of the government....there is not this clear seperation you appear to believe there is.
And even if they were "captured" it would be at best a showpiece. I was speculating as to what the best solution would be...terrorists being aprehended and punished by their own people. It sure ain't gonna happen any time soon.

If people are allowed to speculate about the fantasy world where killing terrorists actually stops terrorism, why can't I imagine places where terrorism is ended without violence?
kat
#25
Apr19-04, 10:39 AM
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Quote Quote by master_coda
If people are allowed to speculate about the fantasy world where killing terrorists actually stops terrorism, why can't I imagine places where terrorism is ended without violence?
Lol, you can...you can..but just don't expect others to believe it. I think the lesson was learned during oslo..you remember when Israel armed arafats police force in good faith, only to have it used against them.
master_coda
#26
Apr19-04, 10:51 AM
P: 678
Quote Quote by kat
Lol, you can...you can..but just don't expect others to believe it. I think the lesson was learned during oslo..you remember when Israel armed arafats police force in good faith, only to have it used against them.
If there's anything that history has taught us, it's that when you're faced with the total failure of a diplomatic solution and the total failure of a military solution...you're screwed.
Chen
#27
Apr19-04, 11:37 AM
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Quote Quote by master_coda
Of course, this highlights the optimial solution to the terrorists Israel is killing...it would be much better if they were aprehended and punished by the Palestininan government. Unfortunatly they seem to be too weak to do anything useful at all.
That is correct. As soon as the Palestinian government starts to take care of the terrorism, IDF's presence in their territory would not be needed. Do you agree? In the absence of any action from their government, Israel has no choice but to do away with the terrorists on its own.
master_coda
#28
Apr19-04, 11:54 AM
P: 678
Quote Quote by Chen
That is correct. As soon as the Palestinian government starts to take care of the terrorism, IDF's presence in their territory would not be needed. Do you agree? In the absence of any action from their government, Israel has no choice but to do away with the terrorists on its own.
My point was never that Isreal shouldn't try and eliminate terrorism, even if it requires the use of force. Just that assassinating a few thugs doesn't really accomplish anything. Killing someone who'll just be replaced by yet another thug is an empty victory.
Chen
#29
Apr19-04, 12:38 PM
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That's another thing... it is a lot more than "a few thugs". Your newspapers only report the big fish, like Yasin and Rantisi, but we kill a lot more terrorists every day, and that's only from the reports in the Israeli press (who knows how many more we kill without telling anyone).
phatmonky
#30
Apr19-04, 12:58 PM
P: 1,528
Quote Quote by kat

Rantisi was a child preying (palestinian and israeli), hateful murderous scum. The world is a better place without him.

agree 100%
master_coda
#31
Apr19-04, 01:52 PM
P: 678
Quote Quote by Chen
That's another thing... it is a lot more than "a few thugs". Your newspapers only report the big fish, like Yasin and Rantisi, but we kill a lot more terrorists every day, and that's only from the reports in the Israeli press (who knows how many more we kill without telling anyone).
Fine, they catch a lot of thugs. What does it matter if they catch 10 terrorists or 10,000 if another 10 or 10,000 replace them? This isn't a problem that can be attacked "one terrorist at a time"; The supply of terrorists is effectively unlimited.

I'm not sure this discussion is doing anything other than going in circles...perhaps we should just agree to disagree.
russ_watters
#32
Apr19-04, 03:36 PM
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Quote Quote by master_coda
Fine, they catch a lot of thugs. What does it matter if they catch 10 terrorists or 10,000 if another 10 or 10,000 replace them? This isn't a problem that can be attacked "one terrorist at a time"; The supply of terrorists is effectively unlimited.

I'm not sure this discussion is doing anything other than going in circles...perhaps we should just agree to disagree.
Well, lets look at it from the other direction then: You've told us how they should not deal with the problem, now tell us how Israel should deal with the problem.
master_coda
#33
Apr19-04, 04:32 PM
P: 678
Quote Quote by russ_watters
Well, lets look at it from the other direction then: You've told us how they should not deal with the problem, now tell us how Israel should deal with the problem.
Oh, I sure wish I had a great solution.

Well, I support the current policy of capturing/killing suicide bombers themselves. This does prevent actual bombings. By itself this isn't a solution though, since they'll just be followed by more bombers later on.

For terrorist leaders, a more observational strategy might work better. Of course, Israel is probably spying on them as much as they can already; but overt attacks again the leaders only makes that more difficult, since it tends to drive them further underground.

Israel could put a great deal of effort into supporting non-violent groups among the Palestinians; this is difficult though, since obviously for any aid they provide, at least some will end up in the hands of the terrorists. Plus aiding these groups may just get them labeled as collaborators, anyway...

Perhaps even just taking a consistent stand would help Israel. It's certainly difficult to understand how their policy works right now...they commit to a withdrawal and then all of a sudden go on the offensive...and then they turn around and commit to a withdrawal. I understand that they're just reacting to a dynamic situation, but it becomes difficult to take people seriously when they Israels policy changes every few weeks.

Perhaps the current situation is just too unpredictable to make a good plan to work out of; unless a drastic change in the social and political structure among the Israelis or Palestinians occurs, there may not be a policy that can end the cycle of retaliation. It's like an awful prisoners dilemma; both sides have to cooperate to come away with anything, but once one side demonstrates weakness, the other side will sense their advantage and try and bargain selfishly.
russ_watters
#34
Apr19-04, 05:37 PM
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Quote Quote by master_coda
Oh, I sure wish I had a great solution.
I appreciate your honesty. Your suggestions aren't bad, but clearly this isn't an 'x won't work, they should do y' situation. No, using force isn't a perfect solution, but I do think its the best.
ShawnD
#35
Apr19-04, 05:41 PM
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Israel could put a great deal of effort into supporting non-violent groups among the Palestinians; this is difficult though, since obviously for any aid they provide, at least some will end up in the hands of the terrorists. Plus aiding these groups may just get them labeled as collaborators, anyway...
Looking at how many times neighboring Arab countries have tried to destroy Israel, it's quite clear that peace is not the option Arabs have in mind.



I think it's great that terrorist leaders are being taken out.
master_coda
#36
Apr19-04, 06:07 PM
P: 678
Quote Quote by ShawnD
Looking at how many times neighboring Arab countries have tried to destroy Israel, it's quite clear that peace is not the option Arabs have in mind.
That's a rather absurd generalization. Are you saying that there are no Arabs in the Middle East who don't want to destroy Israel?


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