Why or How an electron REVOLVE around the Atom ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature of electron motion around atomic nuclei, specifically questioning how electrons can maintain their motion without a continuous energy source and whether this violates the law of conservation of energy. The conversation touches on classical and quantum physics perspectives, as well as analogies to planetary motion.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how electrons can revolve around the nucleus indefinitely without a source of energy, suggesting this might violate conservation of energy.
  • Others clarify that the depiction of electrons orbiting the nucleus is a semi-classical approximation and inquire about the concept of radiation losses.
  • One participant draws an analogy between electrons revolving around the nucleus and Earth revolving around the sun, questioning the need for energy in both cases.
  • Another participant challenges this analogy, emphasizing the differences between electromagnetic forces acting on electrons and gravitational forces acting on planets.
  • Some participants argue that in classical physics, electrons can be thought to revolve around the nucleus similar to planets, while in quantum physics, electrons occupy fixed orbitals and do not revolve in the classical sense.
  • There is mention of various models, including Bohr's model and more advanced quantum theories, indicating that explanations can vary significantly in complexity and interpretation.
  • One participant asserts that no energy is required to maintain rotational motion in a stable system, referencing conservation of angular momentum.
  • Another participant compares the electron's behavior to a flywheel, suggesting that without friction, it can maintain its motion indefinitely.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether electrons require energy to maintain their motion and whether classical analogies are appropriate. There is no consensus on the fundamental nature of electron motion, with some favoring classical interpretations and others advocating for quantum perspectives.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reveals limitations in understanding the transition from classical to quantum descriptions of atomic behavior, as well as the assumptions underlying analogies used in the conversation. Some participants express confusion about the concepts being discussed.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals exploring foundational concepts in atomic physics, particularly those curious about the nature of electron motion and the implications of classical versus quantum models.

mhd
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how electron do this work infinity?
where the energy come from for this work?
It thus violates the law of conservation of energy.
((please answer and teach me))
 
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Realize that a picture of electrons orbiting the nucleus is a semi-classical approximation, at best. Are you asking about radiation losses?
 
I asking about this:

How an electron rotate around the proton ?
The electron need energy for REVOLVE around the Atom
Where the energy of rotating come from ?
 
And I'm asking: What makes you think the electron needs energy to revolve around the nucleus?

For example: Does the Earth need energy to revolve around the sun?

I'm just checking the level of answer you want.
 
We can not prevent from electron rotating
But with a small FRICTION we can prevent from Earth rotating around the sun ...

YES?
 
Whud?

Though I somewhat feel incapable of catching up with the thread of this coversation and the comparison to Earth and sun appears more to be a joke to me:

Will you rephrase what makes you think the "electron-proton system" is different from the "earth-sun system". What friction? Prevent what?

(at least a thread which doesn't require me to have a physics major to understand it :-D)
 
dear sir please attention to :

The Earth REVOLVE around the sun for this reason : Einstein Relativity
But the reason of electron rotating is ... ?
 
_Whud?!_

Don't you think you start mixing things there up a little bit? As for the comparison by Doc Al, consider the following:

Electron-Nucleus: Electromagnetic Forces
Earth-Sun: Gravitational Forces
 
please say the reason of electron rotating to me ...
 
  • #10
I can't bring it down to one point in a single post. Neither do I think that I could fully explain it anyway. But that's far more ellaborate than you'd imagine. As Doc Al correctly mentioned before, we first should be aware of the level of complexity you actually want.

There are many different ways to explain the one or another thing. Each way comes with its specific advantages and flaws. As for the atomic structure you could, for instace, consult archaic ideas such as Bohr's atomic mode where the electron just revolves the nucleus like the Earth would the sun, or you could try to go far beyond this and explain it in terms of quantum physics where the electron is not just an electron any longer but instead a wave.
If you are still not satisfied you could consider QED and QCD where the electron is not a wave any longer but is made up of tiny particles which describe fundamental relationships.

But for all this, don't ask me. I'm not even a student of physics.
 
  • #11
mhd said:
dear sir please attention to :
Someone tells you you are wrong so you insult them?

The Earth REVOLVE around the sun for this reason : Einstein Relativity
But the reason of electron rotating is ... ?
No, the Earth does NOT revolve around the sun because of "Einstein Relativity". By classical physics, if the Earth did not rotate around the sun, it could not avoid being pulled into the sun by gravity. Except for minor details the rotation of the planets is fully described by Newtonian physics and relativity is not needed at all.

mhd said:
please say the reason of electron rotating to me ...
You have already been told two things:

In classical physics, the electron rotates around the nucleus, the Bohr "planetary model" for exactly the same reason the Earth rotates around the sun. But you simply deny that.

In quantum physics, the electron does NOT rotate around the nucleus so there is no question.
 
  • #12
mhd said:
how electron do this work infinity?
where the energy come from for this work?
It thus violates the law of conservation of energy.
((please answer and teach me))

This question has been asked over and over again. Thats why we wrote the explanation into our FAQ : https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=862093&postcount=2

marlon
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #13
mhd said:
IThe electron need energy for REVOLVE around the Atom
Where the energy of rotating come from ?
Hi mhd,

As others already mentioned, electrons do not orbit, rotate, or revolve around an atom. They occupy fixed orbitals.

However, you should be aware that in general no energy is required to maintain rotational motion. The conservation of angular momentum requires that a rotating system continue rotating indefinitely unless acted on by some external force. An external force can do work on a rotating system to increase its rotation and thereby add some kinetic energy, or the rotating system can do work on an external body to decrease its rotation and thereby lose some kinetic energy. But energy input is not required to maintain constant angular momentum.
 
  • #14
no loss of energy

mhd said:
It thus violates the law of conservation of energy.
((please answer and teach me))

Hi mhd! Welcome to PF! :smile:

No, it neither gains nor loses energy.

This is because it stays the same distance from the proton.

It's like a flywheel rotating (on a stationary axis) - if there's no friction, then there's no loss of energy, and the flywheel will keep going at the same rate forever.

Does that help? :smile:
 
  • #15
tiny-tim said:
Hi mhd! Welcome to PF! :smile:

No, it neither gains nor loses energy.

This is because it stays the same distance from the proton.

It's like a flywheel rotating (on a stationary axis) - if there's no friction, then there's no loss of energy, and the flywheel will keep going at the same rate forever.

Does that help? :smile:

Guys, the question has been solved ! No need to keep regurgitating the same answer over and over again.

marlon
 

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