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Supreme Court Strikes Down D.C. Gun Ban

by WheelsRCool
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OrbitalPower
#19
Jun26-08, 09:01 PM
P: 88
The founders passed gun control regulations all the time. What the heck are you talking about? If you look at how the added amendments came about, you can see that the second amendment was a comprimise. Blacks for example could never even own guns, because they were not technically citizens.

This is just more of that kooky, conservative reaction to man's problems: that they have to be handled with violence.

Tyrannies overthrown with guns only lead to more tyrannies, and the idea that guns solve any problems is insane.
OrbitalPower
#20
Jun26-08, 09:02 PM
P: 88
lol. I watched their whole episode on gun control. They never quote the numerous historians out there that explain the context of the second amendment.

These are the same guys who claimed second hand smoke does no damage despite the thousands of pages of medical evidence to the contrary that has been around for years.
WarPhalange
#21
Jun26-08, 09:03 PM
P: 343
Quote Quote by OrbitalPower View Post
Tyrannies overthrown with guns only lead to more tyrannies, and the idea that guns solve any problems is insane.
You would have a point if anybody ever did any overthrowing. People these days are content in simply having guns. Take away all their other rights, but let them have guns and they'll be happy. Happy enough not to ever use them, making the whole thing pointless.

EDIT: By the way, I'd like to see people rebel against tanks and jet fighters with their pea shooters.
OrbitalPower
#22
Jun26-08, 09:04 PM
P: 88
Quote Quote by drankin View Post
This is a pretty huge decision for Americans. If you are a law-abiding (not a felon), mentally competent American you can now possess a handgun in your home anywhere in the US. It goes without saying IMO, but it needed to be ruled definatively by the Supreme Court. A very important "do not cross" line for gun control advocates has been drawn.
Another ahistorical opinion.

Courts go back and forth all the time, such as on the issue of free-speech. It has actually been through judicial decisions that we've gotten more free-speech, at times, there were less.

Guns are pretty easy to get already in most states, so it will be interesting to see how this does not solve any problems.
OrbitalPower
#23
Jun26-08, 09:10 PM
P: 88
Quote Quote by WarPhalange View Post
You would have a point if anybody ever did any overthrowing. People these days are content in simply having guns. Take away all their other rights, but let them have guns and they'll be happy. Happy enough not to ever use them, making the whole thing pointless.

EDIT: By the way, I'd like to see people rebel against tanks and jet fighters with their pea shooters.
Yes.

I live in a state of hunters. Most of these guys couldn't take over a local city council meeting, let alone destroy the US government. Knowing their accuracy, they'd probably shoot themselves before they shot anybody else.

This is just the thing though, gun nuts claim guns will check tyranny, but the gun nuts themselves are usually the ones that support the most tyranny, both at home and abroad.
mheslep
#24
Jun26-08, 09:11 PM
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Quote Quote by D H View Post
... If you think that this amendment is outdated, fine. Change the Constitution.
Exactly. The last proposed amendment was thirty years ago in '78 (DC Voting - rejected). Even though society is larger and changing faster than ever before, the amendment process has been nearly forgotten , a consequence of jurists who hold a 'living document' philosophy.
mheslep
#25
Jun26-08, 09:18 PM
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Quote Quote by WarPhalange View Post
You would have a point if anybody ever did any overthrowing. People these days are content in simply having guns. Take away all their other rights, but let them have guns and they'll be happy. Happy enough not to ever use them, making the whole thing pointless.

EDIT: By the way, I'd like to see people rebel against tanks and jet fighters with their pea shooters.
Then go 'see' how the pea shooters did in the Hungarian Revolution 1956, for the VC in Vietnam, and in the Iraqi insurrection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...ing_a_tank.jpg
mheslep
#26
Jun26-08, 09:24 PM
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Quote Quote by OrbitalPower View Post
...Tyrannies overthrown with guns only lead to more tyrannies, and the idea that guns solve any problems is insane.
Quick, somebody get the straight jackets out to descendent's of the US Civil war, German and Japanese tyrants caused by WWII, etc.
OrbitalPower
#27
Jun26-08, 09:29 PM
P: 88
Your history is confused. The Civil War was fought to keep the Union together. It's been proven numerous times. The conditions improved for many slaves but the economic conditions were also tyrannical.

World War II wasn't to "stop tyranny," either, and the countries that fought the Nazis, the allies, esp. the US and Russia, went on to kill millions of people in Indochina and in the case of Russia in their own country, obviously, far more than the Nazis killed.
OrbitalPower
#28
Jun26-08, 09:35 PM
P: 88
Quote Quote by mheslep View Post
Then go 'see' how the pea shooters did in the Hungarian Revolution 1956, for the VC in Vietnam, and in the Iraqi insurrection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...ing_a_tank.jpg
Gun nuts talk about rebellion against the government to stop a vicious tyranny. Those countries did not end tyranny at all.

Show a case where the citizens stood up to their government and tyranny reduced and thus democide reduced.

World War II is incorrect because democide actually increased. And the American revolution was really governments fighting. The people were never represented in the US, a majority, and actually had to be drafted into fighting as well.
mheslep
#29
Jun26-08, 09:43 PM
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Quote Quote by OrbitalPower View Post
Your history is confused. The Civil War was fought to keep the Union together. It's been proven numerous times.
I don't say otherwise, as the free / slave state issue plainly caused the disunion. It is clear that the civil war stopped the confederate tyranny of slavery and it was "overthrown with guns".

World War II wasn't to "stop tyranny," either,
If that is true then the phrase means nothing and no war to 'stop tyranny' has ever taken place. You are temporizing.
WarPhalange
#30
Jun26-08, 10:14 PM
P: 343
Quote Quote by mheslep View Post
Then go 'see' how the pea shooters did in the Hungarian Revolution 1956, for the VC in Vietnam, and in the Iraqi insurrection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...ing_a_tank.jpg
Vietnam got firebombed and Iraq is a total crap hole. What's your point? That these people live in defiance, because they don't even have a roof over their head?

But hell, Jesse Ventura said it best: "Give me 9 snipers and I'll paralyze the nation"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7uJNjRkbAtg at 6:50

The point being that people with guns aren't willing to use them, meaning that they are completely pointless. These people touting guns as freedom are useless.
Cyrus
#31
Jun26-08, 10:21 PM
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Bla bla bla, waa waa waa. Tax paying citizens have their right to own a gun, like anyone else in any other state.
Cyrus
#32
Jun26-08, 10:23 PM
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Quote Quote by OrbitalPower View Post
Guns are pretty easy to get already in most states, so it will be interesting to see how this does not solve any problems.
The right to own a gun isnt to "solve any problems", you miss the point ENTIRELY.
Cyrus
#33
Jun26-08, 10:25 PM
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Quote Quote by OrbitalPower View Post
Yes.

I live in a state of hunters. Most of these guys couldn't take over a local city council meeting, let alone destroy the US government. Knowing their accuracy, they'd probably shoot themselves before they shot anybody else.

This is just the thing though, gun nuts claim guns will check tyranny, but the gun nuts themselves are usually the ones that support the most tyranny, both at home and abroad.
You know, you sure do have a lot of opinions that have nada, zip, zilch, to do with the topic of this thread. What does the opinion of guns nuts supporting tyranny at home and abroad --whatever the hell that means, have to do with this discussion.

Instead of having any rational talk, you are just throwing nonsense after nonsense about things that have no relation.

Lets make this stupidly simple:

q: do the people of DC pay taxes like anyone else?
A: YES.

q: Do people in any other state have the RIGHTS of the constitution?
a: YES.

q: Do the TAX PAYING citizens of DC have these same rights as anyone else?
a: YES.

q: Does everyone else get to have guns
a: YES.

So, explain to me why the people of DC, normal TAX PAYING CITIZENS cant have guns? Do they get only partial rights under the US constitution?


You dont like guns, we all get that. Then you have to change the constitution for EVERYONE, not just states and the district here and there.
Vanadium 50
#34
Jun26-08, 10:26 PM
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Quote Quote by WarPhalange View Post
I like how they completely ignored the first half of the sentence, though. You know, the whole militia part.
How can you say this? Did you even read the decision? Out of ~157 pages, approximately 156 was devoted to the relationship between the first half of the sentence and the second.

Personally, I found the Breyer dissent most troubling - he argues that enumerated rights in the Bill of Rights are not absolute, and that the government is justified in regulating them into irrelevance if it serves a compelling state interest. I think that's a very slippery slope Mr. Justice Breyer is standing on.
OrbitalPower
#35
Jun26-08, 10:46 PM
P: 88
Quote Quote by Cyrus View Post
You know, you sure do have a lot of opinions that have nada, zip, zilch, to do with the topic of this thread.
It does have to do with the thread. I was replying to people who made the statement that runs were a prerequisite to freedom.

It was in completely in context with the line of discussion in the thread.

Quote Quote by Cyrus View Post
What does the opinion of guns nuts supporting tyranny at home and abroad --whatever the hell that means, have to do with this discussion.
It clearly had to do with what I was replying to.

Quote Quote by Cyrus View Post
Instead of having any rational talk, you are just throwing nonsense after nonsense about things that have no relation.
It isn't "nonsense" -- I'm very wary of people who advocate guns as a prerequisite for freedom and then advocate absolute tyranny -- and it had everything to do with the comment I was replying to.

Quote Quote by Cyrus View Post

q: do the people of DC pay taxes like anyone else?
A: YES.

q: Do people in any other state have the RIGHTS of the constitution?
a: YES.

q: Do the TAX PAYING citizens of DC have these same rights as anyone else?
a: YES.

q: Does everyone else get to have guns
a: YES.

So, explain to me why the people of DC, normal TAX PAYING CITIZENS cant have guns? Do they get only partial rights under the US constitution?

I don't believe the constitution gives people the right to own guns. The founders themselves prohibited people from owning guns, and declared they had the "right" to take people's guns away from them in given scenarios (such as being "disaffected with the revolution"). So, you wouldn't have the change the constitution at all to have strict regulation.

I can give you the names of plenty of historians and legal scholars who've written on the context of the issue, noting the second amendment is not an individual right, and they know a lot more about the issue than Penn & Teller.
drankin
#36
Jun26-08, 10:56 PM
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P: 175
Quote Quote by OrbitalPower View Post
I don't believe the constitution gives people the right to own guns.
Hmmm. Apparently that belief wasn't backed by enough evidence to convince the highest court in the country. I think it's fair to say with credibility that you are technically wrong. And that is going to be the standing fact for many generations to come. But, if one doesn't like that fact there is always Canada right next door...


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