Georgian - South Ossetian - Russian Conflict

Gokul43201

Pravda falls squarely under the category of what, in the west, is called a tabloid. That makes it not a reliable source.

Also, much of this discussion seems to accept the good vs. bad dichotomy, and seeks to establish which labels to attach to which country. Why?

wildman

Why not? Pravda is short on facts, but it does show the emotions in Russia.

Gokul43201

Being short on facts is unacceptable.

The present day style of Pravda is an insult to the original paper, founded almost exactly a century ago, by Trotsky.

WmLambert

Cyberwar

Russian Elite troops

Ukraine's distancing from Russia

Russia targeting Caspian Sea pipeline - yet elite troops missing targets

Ukraine distancing itself from Russia

Historical claim of how Russia prods its neighboring clients to commit such provocations that the adversary is drawn into military action that "legitimizes" a massive, direct intervention to "defend the victims of aggression."

Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean. Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Georgia falls victim to pipeline politics

Premeditated Cyber attack on Georgia

For all that US commentators and diplomats are still chattering about Russia's "response" to Georgia's actions, the Kremlin spent months planning and preparing this operation. Any soldier above the grade of private can tell you that there's absolutely no way Moscow could've launched this huge ground, air and sea offensive in an instantaneous "response" to alleged Georgian actions.

The rapid availability and deployment of these two invasion forces by Russia makes it clear that the Russian government had planned, deployed and staged these operations well in advance, raising the natural question regarding whether Russia instigated the attacks/shelling of Georgian villages and positions by South Ossetian forces to provoke the response by Georgia, which Russian then used as a pretext for an already planned invasion.

U.S. and its allies think Russia instigated the fighting by having pro-Russian forces in South Ossetia attack Georgian villages. At the same time, said the official, Moscow was outwardly urging calm and promising to control separatists.

Time will tell.

meopemuk

This is what I would call "propaganda". Only one side of the story is presented and the level of noise is so high that any logic and reason is drowned in it. Why is it that your links do not mention the views of South Ossetians, who know better than anybody else what happened in the night of August 8th in Tshinvali and who is to blame?

Why don't you try www.russiatoday.com? This is not as powerful propaganda machine as CNN and FOX, but you can see some interesting and authentic stuff there.

Saakhashvili and Rice may talk about the "territorial integrity" of Georgia as much as they want, but I don't think there is a single person in South Ossetia and Abkhazia who would agree to live under Georgian rule after what happened on August 8th.

Astronuc

But the Georgians living in the areas of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia do apparently prefer to live as part of Georgia. Apparently over the last decade or so, there has been a concerted effort by Abkhazian and Ossetian separatists (with tacit support from Russia) to attack and drive out ethnic Georgians, i.e. ethnic cleansing. If Abkhazians and Ossetians want to be part of Russia, why not just simply immigrate to Russia?

Nations/governments do consider territorial integrity important. Russia considers it's territory borders to be important, and will fight separatist movements - e.g. Chechnya.

seycyrus

You GOTTA be kidding me. Not only do you want his links to support his position, but you want them to support *yours* as well. Ridiculous!

Most of the facts that have been presented on this thread are derived from sources that are non-neutral.

baywax

I don't quite get the "ethnic" tag. Are Americans "ethnic" Americans?

meopemuk

As far as I know Georgians did the same, i.e., expelled Ossetians and Abkhazians from the territory of Georgia proper.

Are you serious? These people lived on their land for centuries. Are they supposed to drop everything and move to a refugee camp now in order to satisfy some abstract Washington's definition of "territorial integrity"?


There are also others who do not consider territorial integrity that important. Remember Kosovo? Russia stood alone against the West and against the independence of Kosovo.

Until August 8th Russia officially supported the territorial integrity of Georgia and signed UN Security Council resolutions, which established that. Until August 8th there was a (slim) chance of peaceful re-incorporation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia into Georgia. After August 8th this chance disappeared. This is just a reality. Nothing personal. I think there is a higher chance than California will re-integrate with Mexico that South Ossetia going back to Georgia.

Astronuc

America is a relatively young nation, as opposed to Georgia, which has a history going back more than 2 millenia. The Abkhazians and Ossetians do not see themselves as Georgian, and they represent different ethnic background.

In the Caucuses, there have been different groups move through the area, Scythians, Sarmatians (Persian/Iranian), Turkic groups (like the Avars), Huns, Armenians, Romans and Greeks. All controlled that region (or parts) at some point, and various different ethnic groups settled within particular areas.


There are ethnic (or racial) groups in the US, but so far none has decided to breakaway. Some people do identify their heritage, e.g. Mexican-American, African-American, . . . .

In NY, there is occasional conflict between local Indian tribes and the state government over matters like taxation and sovereignty.

baywax

Canada sent troops and tanks into Quebec (one of the Canadian provinces) when they were threatening to separate. They were pulling terrorist tactics like kidnapping and killing officials. The then Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau was quite decisive about stopping any ideas of Quebec sovereignty as quickly as possible. And, of course, the idea is still pretty strong today and Trudeau has passed. At the moment we have a patzy for a Prime Minister.

Astronuc

I'm sure that has happened - but when, and recently? Then how to resolve that. All sides have done their share of ethnic cleansing.

Yes, I am serious. What about the ethnic Georgians who live in Abkhazia and Ossetia, who have done so for centuries, and who want to remain as Georgia citizens in Georgia? During the Soviet era, Georgia was pretty much are recognized Republic. (unfortunately Wikipedia is the only source available quickly - not that I necessarily trust it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra...lic_of_Georgia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DRGMap.png

AFAIK, the Kosovars voted democratically to become independent. When the Serbia military attack the Kosovars, Serbia forfeited any claim to Kosovo.

Well, apparently there are some Mexican-Americans who feel that parts of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California should return to Mexico. I recently came across an article that indicated that European-Americans will become a minority by ~2040, and Hispanics will be the majority. So perhaps it's a matter of time.

meopemuk

Those parts of the world are quite different from the US, where immigrants are quickly assimilated and families often lose their native language in the 2nd or 3rd generation.

When people say they are Georgians or Russians they usually mean their ethnicity (primarily, their mother's tongue) rather than their passports. I've been in Georgia twice (and once in Abkhazia) in 1980's. This is a colorful place. I was in a mountain village occupied by ethnic Greeks who spoke Greek language and probably lived there since "Illiada" times. There were Georgian, Ossetian, and Azerbaijani villages nearby. Different ethnic groups lived side-by side for centuries, mostly peacefully. It is sad to see how this delicate fabric of relationships gets torn apart now.

meopemuk

AFAIK, the South Ossetians voted democratically (twice) to become independent. When the Georgian military attack the South Ossetians, Georgia forfeited any claim to South Ossetia.

quadraphonics

From what I understand, that sentiment only enjoys non-trivial support amongst actual Mexicans, not Mexican-Americans.

baywax

This is very interesting. Imagine the direct link to ancient times through the language and oral traditions of these Greek "ethnics" in Abkhazia.

So I guess the Quebecker are ethnic French because they've hung on to a form of french as their language. Something like the Acadians in Louisiana.


Please preserve the relationships between cultures and please preserve the cultures. Its not difficult... just leave them alone.

Oil (cash/power/etc) is not a good reason to kill all of these people... the oil will soon be gone and the people will become the best resource for new ideas and innovations in energy use and sourcing, if they survive the tug'o'war between the greedy national "leaders".

Jimmy Snyder

Yikes. Perhaps you are referring to this story:
Bloomberg News
They estimate that in 2042, non-Hispanic whites will no longer be the majority. However, Hispanics will not thereby become the majority. The estimate is 30%. As for European-Americans, I don't know how to separate Hispanic-Americans from European-Americans if it can be done at all since Spain is in Europe. Finally, I don't think there are that many Hispanic-Americans who want to give any of the aforementioned inches of land to Mexico.