How stable is the CMBR map over time?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the stability of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) map over time, exploring whether the intensity variations observed are static or subject to change. Participants consider the implications of these variations for understanding the early universe and the potential for future comparisons of CMBR maps.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the extent to which the CMBR varies over time, suggesting that intensity variations reflect the early universe's conditions.
  • Another participant agrees that the pattern of hot and cold spots in the CMBR should remain static over thousands of years, despite the overall average temperature gradually cooling.
  • It is noted that the CMB has cooled from around 3000 Kelvin to approximately 2.7 Kelvin since its release, indicating a slow change in average temperature.
  • One participant mentions that while the average temperature is declining, the specific patterns of variation are not expected to change significantly.
  • Another participant emphasizes that comparisons of CMBR maps have been ongoing since the 1990s with COBE and WMAP, asserting that no changes have been observed in the maps over time.
  • There is a metaphorical comparison made between the permanence of the CMB map and the Sistine Chapel ceiling, highlighting the enduring nature of the CMBR image.
  • It is pointed out that any changes in the CMB observed would be too slow to detect with current instruments, attributed to the gradual expansion of the universe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the patterns of the CMBR map are expected to remain stable over time, but there is some uncertainty regarding the implications of the average temperature's gradual cooling. The discussion reflects a mix of agreement on the stability of the map and ongoing questions about future observations.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that while the CMBR map is continuously observed and refined, the very slow cooling of the average temperature may not be detectable in the short term. There is also mention of the effects of the observer's motion being factored out in the current maps.

Hydr0matic
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To what extent does the CMBR vary over time ? If I have understood it correctly the intensity variations in http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/cobe/cobe_images/cmb_fluctuations_big.gif, are due to the fact that some of this energy turned into matter in the early universe. So in a sense, the CMBR displays what the early universe looked like, correct ? .. roughly anyway ... :smile:

If this is true, then this intensity distribution should be pretty static, right ? So if this sort of map is produced again in a couple of years, it should look basically the same, am I right ? Has this comparison already been made perhaps ?
 
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Hydr0matic said:
...If this is true, then this intensity distribution should be pretty static, right ? So if this sort of map is produced again in a couple of years, it should look basically the same, am I right ? ...

I believe you are right. The pattern of hot and cold spots should not change even over thousands of years.

the overall average temperature (around 2.7 kelvin) is gradually cooling as the universe expands

since the radiation was released it has cooled by an estimated factor of 1100 from around 3000 kelvin to the present 2.7 kelvin
so, in this limited sense, the CMB is changing-----if we could wait a very very long time we would see it cool slightly
but the pattern of variation from the average (the hot and cold spots) would not be expected to change even as the average declines



BTW these maps showing variations of a few millikelvin around the average
already have the effects of the observer's motion factored out.
secular changes in the observer's motion would affect the CMB which is actually seen, over time (e.g. as the direction the sun is traveling in the galaxy changes) but that's been compensated for so it doesn't really count
 
Thanx marcus..

So if this comparison hasn't been done yet, when are we likely to see one ?
 
Hydr0matic said:
Thanx marcus..

So if this comparison hasn't been done yet, when are we likely to see one ?

A comparison over time has been implicitly in progress since COBE in the 1990s and now with WMAP

every year we get more data
there is never any sign of a change
the map just gets more and more refined

the face of the CMB, in that map,
is eternal

it is like the Sistine Chapel ceiling that Michelangelo painted
except even more permanent---well you think of a better image.
it is more permanent than any other image I can think of

It is not really correct to say "a comparison has not been done yet"
since there has been continuous observation over quite a few years
and any change would have been noticed


only there is this very slow cooling, which is much too slow for any
instrument to detect, coming from the very slow expansion of the universe
 
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