Jobs for physics graduates

Chi Meson

Alex:

OW!

Sorry to hear about your fate in California. I think it might be the case that the tech centers there are flooded with scientists so it's a buyer's market even for physics. So unless you want to move to another state ...

alexepascual

Chi Meson,
I am pretty much established in California. I guess my situation would have to get pretty bad for me to decide to move.
Today I went to a job interview. It is for an optical engineering job. Let's see what happens, they'll let me know in two weeks. The thing is that those jobs don't appear that often and when they do there are many applicants.
If by fall I don't have a job, I'll be able to teach one lab at school. That won't be enough, but is something. They told me I might be able to get to teach two labs in my second semester, wich is still not enough but would cover a great part of my expenses.
As far as teaching high school, that is something I would rather not reconsider. Just thinking about it makes me kind of depressed. But I can understand how you may have had a good experience with it and now love it. In my case it may be a combination of things that determined the way I feel. On one hand ending up in a bad school district in California may not have been very helpful, but on the other hand, probably interacting with high school kids was not such a strong motivator for me as to give me strength to overcome all the difficulties and persevere in that field.
Talking about teaching, I think I might feel different teaching at a community college. I haven't inquired into that, but I think they hire people with masters degrees.
Well, Chi meson, I am glad for you that you found an occupation that is secure and which you feel good about. If you are married, your wife must be happy about it too.

asdfjkl

I haven't been able to read everything that has been posted so this may have been stated already. But... Jobs for defence contractors and other federally funded research labs cannot be outsourced because they typically involve a security clearance. So companies like L-3 communications (where I used to work with a BS in physics), Boeing, Lockheed, Honeywell, Northrup Grummond (sp?), Raytheon, Litton, and many many more, plus Los Alamos (LANL), LLNL, PNNL, Fermilab, BNL, ORNL, etc. typically hire physics BS holders.

The AIP had a page that listed the top industrial companies for hiring physics phd's, most do contract work for the Gov't and I'm sure most would hire a BS holder for a less specialized position (software engineer for example).

Another thing to consider, if you aren't insisting to remain in physics and if you plan to go back to school, is to go for a professional degree. Standardized tests like the GMAT (MBA type programs) and LSAT (law school) are cake walks for physicists and physicists typically do very well in such programs. I seriously considered law school, but have remained in my phd program.

alexepascual

Thanks for your info asdfjkl. I guess for those who would like to transition to another career, the ones you list are good options.
I think in the past I have approached defense contractors without much luck. Recently I applied for a job with one of them and they showed some interest, as they called me back, but they required pre-existent clearance.
I also understand that perhaps the most common function for a physics major working in industry is as an engineer of some sort. But most companies prefer to hire people with engineering degrees for those functions. Photonics and optical engineering may be the exception, but those fields have suffered from the semiconductor and telecom busts.
For software engineering, I guess if you know C, C++, embedded programming, and have experience programming, you may be able to get a job, but there may be a lot of competition.

Thanks again for your input asdf

Alem2000

I know this is probably a stupid question but cant you double in theoretical and experimental in grad school? On the other hand the basic drift im getting from this page is that theoretical phlysicists dont get jobs most of the time and others just get low pay? That really sucks, im kinda pissed...i mean paying for school and getting and education and then..WAM!...no job.

loseyourname

Hey guys. I just changed my major from Biology to Physics (I also double in Philosophy, but that's strictly for fun). I'm really only doing this because I love science and I love math. At the same time, I don't have very good time in lab, and I doubt I'll become a scientist after I graduate. In fact, there's a good chance I'll go to business school or law school. Ultimately, I'd like to be a club owner anyway. I just want to point out to everybody here that there is always work to do as long as you keep an open mind. Perhaps you won't end up in the field you envisioned, but so what? Presumably there exists more than one line of work you can be happy in. It isn't easy getting started, but if you have the expertise, you can always make a lot of money doing consultant work. Or as ZZ pointed out, there is plenty of work for physicists in defense contracting. Heck, you can even join the Air Force. It isn't like you'll be doing any fighting. Just stay optimistic. If you have a degree in physics, you're a very smart person, and ultimately, that's the most important skill you can have. Don't psych yourself out.

Alem2000

Woooo, slow down buddy..im lost. Defense contracting? Join the Air force? Can you please elaborate on these, especially defense contracting...doesnt sound too shabby. What do you do, design weapons and stuff?

alexepascual

I started getting interested in physics at an early age, but I didn't pursue a career in it due to my perception that the only opportunities for work in that field were related to nuclear weapons. So it was much later in life that I returned to physics, and this time it was with the intention to teach.
Today, I guess there is a multitude of wonderful weapons (not only nuclear) that can kill in so many ways and there is so much work in that field.
We consider these activities as "defense" and I wonder if that label was chosen just for us to feel better about it. I happen to think that the line between deffensive and offensive operations is usually blurry and it depends on your frame of reference.
I think "defense" applications of physics is a hot field today in the US. And it may get hotter as the enemies keep multiplying (why is it that people hate us if we are the good guys?) Well, let's not get into politics. I personally don't enjoy creating killing machines. I would rather get into applications to save lifes, such as medical applications. But my main motivation has always been pure knowledge of the most fundamental processes in nature, which by the way I think may eventually provide some answers to philosofical questions outside of physics (regardless what Feynman may have thought about this)
Of course, it is not always possible to make a living by doing research in fundamental science, specially if you are not already at the top.
So that's the quandry.

Alem2000

Do you konw where I could get more information about defense contracting? And by the way what did you mean by "regardless what Feynman may have thought about this"..what would he have thought about the philisophical questions?

JohnDubYa

I will further ZapperZ's statement that too many students want to study esoteric subjects at the expense of employability. They think at the time that money means nothing to them, and research is life's own reward.

Then they get married. :)

I would be especially cautious of theoretical physics. I loved doing it, but if it hadn't been for my extensive computational background (that went well beyond mere programming) life would be much tougher today.

alexepascual

Alem,
If you look at the Sunday newspaper, you'll see plenty of ads, some times full-page ads, from the main defense contractors and some smaller ads from sub-contractors. I have to warn you that there is a large percentage of these positions that require pre-existing clearence.
I also saw an ad last sunday for work at the nuclear plant in Don Onofre (near San Diego, CA). These positions just require good knowledge of physics, math etc. but I don't think they require a degree. Maybe they require a two-year degree. They train.
I also remember seing ads for positions with the Navy working in nuclear submarines. Decently good pay, and they train. (You can't be claustrophobic though)
What did Feynman think about philosophy? He had an aversion for philosofers, and he thought that there are questions that are better left alone. Nevertheless much of his thinking was pretty philosofical.
He argued against extrapolating from the area of physics to other areas of thought were the same concepts may not be relevant or valid. I would agree with this to some extent. But on the other hand, I think that we might see in the future ideas from the field of physics having a profound impact in our answering some of the outstanding filosofical questions.
I suspect it might be the case that many of the topics on which some physicists have advised us not to think about, they have actually spent a lot of time thinking about without success.

Alem2000

Oh okay..I see what you mean. Thanks for the information !

JohnDubYa

Be careful of the teaching field unless you plan on getting a credential. Schools are now much tougher on handing out emergency credentials, and without a teaching credential you have little chance of obtaining a permanent teaching job. (Emergency credentials are also relegated to the lowest end of the pay scale.)

NSX

Well, I've just received my Admission into Physics, though I'm hesitant to accept this offer now that I realize Engineers are much more employable than Physicists.

What do you guys think of Engineering Science?
[link here: http://www.engsci.utoronto.ca/]

Right now, I am [going into] a second year Mechanical Engineering student @ Ryerson University. The amount of students being hired after graduation is fairly high [see here].

I really love Physics [but Physics sucks as compared to Engineering employability], and so I was considering going into Physics for the fall term, while applying for a transfer into Engineering Science for the winter term. Then, I would specialize in Physics during my 3^rd & 4^th years.

What do you guys think?

Actually, my main question is: Are Engineering Science graduates as employable as graduates of Mechanical Engineering?

And what do you guys think of my plan?

JohnDubYa

Not sure, as I am not familiar with engineering science.

Your concern about employability leads me to believe you would be best off with the engineering degree.

Why not get a degree in mechanical engineering and a Masters in physics? Or you could just minor in physics (although the two departments are usually located in two different schools, which means you would have to take a few redundant courses).

NSX

Can I do that?
My school does not offer graduate programs for Physics for one thing.

Another thing about that is starting in the fall 2004 term, I will no longer be taking any pure physics courses. I wil take a bunch of statics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and fluid mechanics, but no pure physics like: Electricity and Magnetism, Geometrical Optics, Quantum Physics, Classical Mechanics, Special Relativity, Astrophysics, etc...

How do Graduate programs operate?
Do I have to fulfill a certain type of requirement for courses before I am deemed acceptable for entrance?

alexepascual

NSX,

With respect to "engineering science", I never heard of that. I is possible that most employers have not heard of it either. You would have to convince the employer that your studies prepared you for the job. There may be positions that require an engineering degree but not specifically mechanical, electrical or chemical. You might do well with that degree when applying for those positions.
If you look at the Sunday newspaper, you'll find some job openings in the engineering section for "electrical engineer", "mechanical engineer", etc. But you won't see any for "engineering scientist".
I think in today's industries there is a tendency to look for people highly specialized. "engineering science" sounds like too general.

With respect to the possibility of getting your masters in physics after a bachelor's in mechanical engineering, you should contact a school that offers the master's in physics and ask them what you would need if you had a bachelor's in mechanical engineering. This information may be a little hard to get though. They may tell you that you need to give them your transcript for them to analyze it, and you would have to explain that you don't have the degree yet. You would have to find someone willing to work with you on this issue. I am sure you would have to take some extra subjects.
I am registered for next fall in the master's degree program in physics, and we'll be using the same books I used for my bachellor's program. Some of the classes are given concurrently for graduate and undergraduate students. That is, the material is the same, but when the test comes you have to do more problems if you are in your master's program. Now, this may not be the same at other universities.
Now, at most universities in the US you get to take some electives. If that is the same in Canada, you might be able to take some of the physics courses while studying for your mechanical engineering degree. You should ask your counselor.