Can Kinetic Energy from Electrolysis Gas Outweigh the Process Energy?

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    Electrolysis Kinetics
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the potential for kinetic energy generated from gases produced during electrolysis to outweigh the energy required for the electrolysis process itself. Participants explore the theoretical implications of buoyancy and energy conversion in the context of electrolysis of seawater at significant depths.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a scenario where gases generated from electrolysis could provide enough kinetic energy to exceed the energy needed for the process, using an analogy of a boulder on a mountainside.
  • Another participant asserts that the potential for work from the kinetic energy of the liberated gas does not exceed the energy required for electrolysis.
  • A participant questions the reasoning behind the assertion that the kinetic energy would not suffice, seeking clarification on the calculations involved.
  • Concerns are raised about the complexity of the calculations, which may involve kinetics, chemistry, and thermodynamics, particularly for those without a strong mathematical background.
  • One participant suggests that the maximum energy obtainable from the buoyancy of the gas is limited and would not approach 100% efficiency in energy extraction.
  • Another participant introduces the idea of buoyancy changes with depth, questioning whether this could be translated into work using a specific formula.
  • A further inquiry is made regarding the expected change in "pull" of a gas bubble as it ascends from a depth of 1,000 feet to 10 feet, seeking quantitative insight.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the kinetic energy from the gases can exceed the energy required for electrolysis. There is no consensus, and multiple competing perspectives remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the calculations involved, including the need to consider various physical laws and principles such as buoyancy and energy conservation. Some assumptions about the system and its behavior remain unaddressed.

brm123
[SOLVED] Kinetics of Electrolysis

Can you help me with this problem?

Assumptions:
1- Electrolysis of seawater at 1,000 ft.
2- Gases are generated having buoyancy, probably chlorine, hydrogen, oxygen
3- Gases are captured as they rise and mechanically converted to electrical energy to power electrolysis

Question:

Does the potential for work provided by the kinetic energy from the liberated gas exceed the energy required to sustain the electrolysis at 1,000... or greater ?

Example: Assume you have a large boulder on a mountain side ready to fall with a small push. The "potential" release of energy is greater than the energy required to start the boulder rolling. I am thinking of the bubble as the boulder and the depth of the ocean as the mountain with electrolysis giving the "push"

As the bubble is "pushed up the mountain" it's velocity will increase, mass will remain basically unchanged or slightly diminished. The amount of energy required to produce the initial "push" is fixed. But the height of the mountain and the "potential" for work can be changed by making the mountain taller or the reaction deeper without the need to increase the push.
 
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The answer is no.

- Warren
 
Then the next question, of course, is WHY?
 
It is not a hard calculation.

- Warren
 
It is if you are not a Mathematician/Physicist. I think it involves: Kinetics Formula, Chemistry of Electrolysis and Boyle's Law as well as Thermodynamics. I am neither Mathmetician or Physicist. Just curious.

Can you tell me which law it would violate? Not conservation of energy since that would not include the kinetic potential of the rising gas.
 
The _absolute_ largest energy you'd be able to pull would be

∫ (net bouyancy) ds

which is not that much.

Plus, you'd never even come close to pulling 100% out of it.
 
I thought it would be more like:

w = 1/2 * m * v2 - 1/2 * m * v02
 
What about the increase in bouyancy that results from the change in depth? Would not the change be an increase in boyancy of about 14.7 pounds per square inch for avery 33 feet the bubble ascends? Can't this increase in "displacement" be translated into "work" see previous formula. [?]
 
Can anyone answer this?

Say you create, by electrolysis, a gas bubble having 1 pound of "pull" at a depth of 1,000 ft. The "pull" is measured by a spring scale (assume it is unaffected by any force other than the bubble for the time being). What would you expect the "pull" in pounds to be if the bubble ascends to a depth of ten feet?
 

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