Airplane 'Photo Op' Angers 9/11 Witnesses

**chroot** · Apr27-09, 06:14 PM

Cyrus,

People see a 747 flying extremely low and doing weird things, essentially right over the site of the worst terrorist attack to have ever occurred on American soil, and...

...you demean them for not having such cold, hard reasoning skills to connect a few circumstantial pieces of evidence together to determine that it was not actually a threat.

Shut the hell up, dude. Really.

If you worked in the Nymex building and had your head buried in your workstation when someone yelled "Oh my god there's a 747 flying 100 feet off the ground outside, and there's an F-16 chasing it!" you would have panicked like a little schoolgirl, just like everyone else.

You sit there in your armchair, reading an ex post facto report that includes all kinds of details that were not available to the people who panicked, and then declare that yourself better than them, because you would not have panicked. Your arrogance is astounding.

The fear of an airliner striking a building in NYC is not "irrational," for God's sake -- it happened just a few years ago. Your rooftop missile installations did nothing then, did they?

- Warren

**russ_watters** · Apr27-09, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Saladsamurai

Did not realize that Manhattan was in D.C. Missed that memo too.

Those fighter planes that were scrambled on 911 weren't there to take photos, Salad.

**russ_watters** · Apr27-09, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by chroot

The fear of an airliner striking a building in NYC is not "irrational," for God's sake -- it happened just a few years ago. Your rooftop missile installations did nothing then, did they?

Not from their storage garages, no...

Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with people panicking over this and I'd prefer the photoshop suggestion, but it doesn't take all that much reasoning to figure out that it isn't a terrorist attack. If it were, what I said a few posts up applies again: people wouldn't have had time to spread their panick, as the terrorists wouldn't be flying in circles.

Postmortem analysis or not, people are dumb when it comes to such things that are so far outside their everyday experiences.

**Cyrus** · Apr27-09, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by chroot

Cyrus,

People see a 747 flying extremely low and doing weird things, essentially right over the site of the worst terrorist attack to have ever occurred on American soil, and...

...you demean them for not having such cold, hard reasoning skills to connect a few circumstantial pieces of evidence together to determine that it was not actually a threat.

Shut the hell up, dude. Really.

Do you really think a hijacked 747 would be allowed to fly over NYC with an F-16 flying next to it? I can understand some people being uneasy about it, sure. But if one takes the time to stop and think, you'd probably realize it wasn't a big deal.

If you worked in the Nymex building and had your head buried in your workstation when someone yelled "Oh my god there's a 747 flying 100 feet off the ground outside, and there's an F-16 chasing it!" you would have panicked like a little schoolgirl, just like everyone else.

That's a fair enough statement if you are in an office building.

You sit there in your armchair, reading an ex post facto report that includes all kinds of details that were not available to the people who panicked, and then declare that yourself better than them, because you would not have panicked. Your arrogance is astounding.

I never said I was better than anyone else....?

The fear of an airliner striking a building in NYC is not "irrational," for God's sake -- it happened just a few years ago. Your rooftop missile installations did nothing then, did they?

- Warren

......right, because they were put there after the fact. Please tone down. All I'm saying is when you see a big airplane painted in the livery of "Air Force One", probably one of the most famous aircraft in the world, escourted by an F-16 your first inclination shouldn't be "its hijacked".

I'm not going to post anymore, because it's really not worth the argument this will turn into.

FYI:

is not a terrorist airplane.

**chroot** · Apr27-09, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Cyrus

Do you really think a hijacked 747 would be allowed to fly over NYC with an F-16 flying next to it? I can understand some people being uneasy about it, sure. But if one takes the top to stop and think, you'd probably realize it wasn't a big deal.

I think it's pretty much impossible for a person on the ground to know whether or not that 747 is there legitimately. Given that the people on the ground had only seconds to "stop and think," I don't think it's unreasonable at all for them to have panicked. The F-16 could be seen as either a good or bad sign, depending upon perspective. The F-16 pilot could have been looking for an opportunity to shoot it down as soon as it flew over water, or could have been waiting for authorization to fire. I'm sure that shooting down a 747 over lower Manhattan would do even more damage than letting it hit a single building anyway.

Also, I doubt that people on the ground were really able to see the plane clearly enough -- from underneath -- to know that it was a presidential aircraft. And, as has been said, the 9/11 airliners did not look unusual or threatening at all, until they actually hit a building and killed a few thousand people.

I never said I was better than anyone else....?

You are faulting these people for panicking, and claiming that you would not have panicked.

I'm not going to post anymore, because it's really not worth the argument this will turn into.

Excellent -- your greatest displays of sensitivity are usually made by closing your mouth.

- Warren

**LowlyPion** · Apr27-09, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by chroot

The plane that landed in the Hudson probably DID scare a number of people, but there was nothing else that could have been done. The pilot saved many lives by doing what he did.

The 747 photo-op was planned in advance, was not done to save anyone's life, and was entirely unnecessary. Do you really not see the difference?

- Warren

Of course I see the difference. I also don't recall a single connection reported at the time to 9/11 with regard to that landing in the Hudson either. And to the average observer they must have had just as much warning in either case, though I suppose that the US Air flight was maybe farther away and less immediate to flying overhead in mid-town.

The City of New York was given notice. Though I suspect that public notice would have been a better choice, than not. (Perhaps it's standard policy not to make announcements about Air Force One flight plans, so I suppose it was a pretty natural oversight on their part.) But basically, I really don't see why they all got so worked up to the point of anger over something that was so inconsequential. No one was trying to scare New Yorkers. In fact I pretty sure they likely didn't anticipate New York's reaction. (I surely wouldn't.)

So Jeez. It was a photo op. It was a training mission. I won't begrudge New Yorkers their being reminded, but maybe they could deal with their momentary concerns a little less like divas?

**Cyrus** · Apr27-09, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by chroot

And, as has been said, the 9/11 airliners did not look unusual or threatening at all, until they actually hit a building and killed a few thousand people.
- Warren

I just want to factually correct you (again). People all said the planes that hit the WTC were coming in low, and with their engines full throttle. They were literally "roaring" down NYC at low altitude. You are simply wrong in this statement.

**chroot** · Apr27-09, 07:09 PM

You seriously don't think that flying 747's (any of them!) at low altitudes over lower Manhattan, without prior notice, is a little insensitive?

- Warren

**mgb_phys** · Apr27-09, 07:22 PM

The DC area is full of missile installations on rooftops exactly for that reason

I wonder who did the risk assesment? There comes a point when for such a low risk event having all those people and weapons around becomes more dangerous.

But at least those are presumably surface-air missiles. After the show bomber scare the army put Challenger tanks in the car park at heathrow - not exactly sure what they were supposed to do to someone on a plane threatening to blow it up.

**Cyrus** · Apr27-09, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by mgb_phys

I wonder who did the risk assesment? There comes a point when for such a low risk event having all those people and weapons around becomes more dangerous.

That picture is from right after 9/11. You won't see these truck around DC anymore, but that doesn't mean there not there. There just not visible.

BTW: I have seen aircraft in the DC area (mostly small general aviation) that have bust the ADIZ and one that lost coms from lightning strike. When those F-16's come to get them, THEY COME TO GET THEM. They don't play around and do circles. They swarm the airplane like a pissed off bee's hive circling it non stop and making a hell of a lot of noise. Trust me, when somethings wrong, it looks NOTHING like the video of NYC photo op.

When I ride my bike in the summer in downtown DC, I enjoy watching the US customs blackhawk fly over me at 500AGL with guys in all black suits with MP5 guns hanging out the doors. It's an impressive sight to see. They do it all the time, no one thinks twice.

**LowlyPion** · Apr27-09, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by chroot

You seriously don't think that flying 747's (any of them!) at low altitudes over lower Manhattan, without prior notice, is a little insensitive?

- Warren

By all accounts that I've seen it was with prior notice to the local authorities involved, but with a no public announcement about it.

Was it insensitive? Sure. At least a bit.

Are the people in New York acting like divas? That's what I think about it all. I think they have over-reacted. I think within the days events that their concerns over the potential loss of European tourists, because of the swine flu outbreak in the city and the European Union recommendation against travel to the US, already made them ouchie, and this just set them off.

**Evo** · Apr27-09, 08:37 PM

I can't blame people for panicking. If I saw this happening, even over a corn field in Kansas, I would be alarmed. It's not exactly "normal" is it?

I actually know the group that are the first responders for intruders into our flight space and were in the group that went up after 9/11. It wasn't who you would think it was. And they don't have the planes you think they do. And even knowing what I know (they're going to kill me now) I would still be frightened.

**mheslep** · Apr27-09, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Cyrus

FYI:

is not a terrorist airplane.

Not so fast, it was in the 1997 Air Force One flick.

That could be evil Ivan Korshunov flying up there with President Marshal, which was being tailed by USAF fighters by the way.
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0041809/

**lisab** · Apr27-09, 09:44 PM

From the pictures I've seen, it looks like a hazy day. No way you'd be able to see "United States of America" on the plane, unless you were very close.

I don't blame people for freaking out a bit over this...traumatic events (such as 9/11) really don't fade in memory, in my experience. It always seems as if they happened just yesterday.

**rootX** · Apr27-09, 10:21 PM

Just read this article:

The mainstream media used to be held accountable for scaremongering and inciting mass panics. But now the public seems perfectly capable of whipping itself up into a frenzy, via Twitter and other social media tools. Here's a great article explaining why that's so dangerous.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/milo_yi...may_cost_lives

People get afraid just looking others panicking? Looks true to me.

**OAQfirst** · Apr27-09, 10:35 PM

It looks like a lot of people never saw the plane, but the sighting was spread by word of mouth. Many people in the office buildings never saw it, and didn't need to to run for the exits. Also consider the angle of view, where it might not be possible to see the presidential marking. A lot of buildings in the city, a lot of offices without window views, a lot with window views without the plane in view.

The fears and panic is understandable. It grows quickly and from lack of knowledge of accurate information. If I saw a bunch of my coworkers heading for the exit after word of a low-flying plane, I'm not going to hang around, either.