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PF Photo Contest - Stormy Weather (11th - 18th Jul)

by Kurdt
Tags: 11th, 18th, contest, photo, stormy, weather
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moose
#19
Jul18-09, 03:57 AM
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Quote Quote by Borek View Post
Lucky man... I am waiting for a good storm that will occur at the correct time of the day and will be well visible from my windows several years now. There were plenty of those BEFORE I bought good digital camera. This summer we have storms almost every day, but they are either in the middle of the day or too far :(
The only thing that allowed that shot to be taken is that I can have long shutters on my point and shoot. If I had a DSLR it would have been so much easier and would have turned out better. Then I could use a smaller aperture and use bulb to hold the shutter open until lightning struck.

Monsoon season in Tucson is always amazing.
Ben Niehoff
#20
Jul18-09, 04:11 AM
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Stitched panorama of a brewing storm at Zion National Park during sunset. Original panorama is 15489x8456. :)

Sorry for the big ugly watermark. I don't trust the internet with my photos.
ZapperZ
#21
Jul18-09, 05:57 AM
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Quote Quote by Ben Niehoff View Post

Stitched panorama of a brewing storm at Zion National Park during sunset. Original panorama is 15489x8456. :)
You may want to check the contest rule about photo editing/modification.

Zz.
Ben Niehoff
#22
Jul18-09, 01:09 PM
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I have to say I'm surprised that is not allowed. People have been making panoramas since the 19th century...

If I had done it in a traditional darkroom (which would be possible, as the individual shots were done with a long lens and would not need any warping, though it would take many hours) and then scanned the result, would that be allowed in the contest?

What if I had done a traditional multiple exposure on 35mm film? (Not for a panorama, obviously; just curious)

What if I had done a digital multiple exposure in camera, but not altered the file afterward?

The image does not depict anything that wasn't actually there, after all. The same scene could have been captured in a single exposure with a 50mm lens, but at a much lower resolution. Heck, what if I had done it with an ultra-high-res scanning camera, that lacks a traditional shutter? After all, that is essentially what I did: scanned a scene appropriate to a 50mm lens using a 180mm lens instead, in order to make a high-resolution image.

Not trying to start an argument; the rules are the rules. But I'm curious whether it is "manipulation" we are worried about, or if it is just backlash against Photoshop.
Equate
#23
Jul18-09, 03:10 PM
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Somewhere near Santa Fe, NM.
Kurdt
#24
Jul18-09, 03:20 PM
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Quote Quote by Equate View Post



Somewhere near Santa Fe, NM.
Too late i'm afraid.
Equate
#25
Jul18-09, 03:35 PM
P: 84
Arghhh!
junglebeast
#26
Jul18-09, 03:41 PM
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Quote Quote by ZapperZ View Post
You may want to check the contest rule about photo editing/modification.

Zz.
Does this mean that images taken from digital cameras with progressive scan should be disallowed, because they are stitching together images taken at multiple times? I don't see a difference.
GeorginaS
#27
Jul19-09, 02:44 AM
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It's too bad you're late, Equate. That's a terrific shot.
junglebeast
#28
Jul19-09, 07:39 AM
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I agree, that is a terrific shot, Equate! ..although I think it's also desperately in need of a few touch ups to correct the exposure, align to the horizon and get rid of dust speckles. These aren't allowed for this contest but I took the liberty of seeing what I could do, which might benefit your personal collection

ZapperZ
#29
Jul19-09, 07:41 AM
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Quote Quote by Ben Niehoff View Post
I have to say I'm surprised that is not allowed. People have been making panoramas since the 19th century...

If I had done it in a traditional darkroom (which would be possible, as the individual shots were done with a long lens and would not need any warping, though it would take many hours) and then scanned the result, would that be allowed in the contest?

What if I had done a traditional multiple exposure on 35mm film? (Not for a panorama, obviously; just curious)

What if I had done a digital multiple exposure in camera, but not altered the file afterward?

The image does not depict anything that wasn't actually there, after all. The same scene could have been captured in a single exposure with a 50mm lens, but at a much lower resolution. Heck, what if I had done it with an ultra-high-res scanning camera, that lacks a traditional shutter? After all, that is essentially what I did: scanned a scene appropriate to a 50mm lens using a 180mm lens instead, in order to make a high-resolution image.

Not trying to start an argument; the rules are the rules. But I'm curious whether it is "manipulation" we are worried about, or if it is just backlash against Photoshop.
When I first started the contest, the whole idea was the get people who have even simple, cheap camera, and who do not have extensive photography, photo-editing skills, to have at least some chance of winning the contest. The contest was never about editing/photo manipulation - it was more about going out and snapping a picture. What you get is what you present.

It was never debated on since the very beginning (and you are welcome to check how long this has been going on). Certainly, whoever is running the contest now can certainly change the rules. However, if it becomes simply nothing more than who has the more expensive camera and who has more skills in manipulating the images, then that's the end of my participation in it.

Zz.
Ben Niehoff
#30
Jul19-09, 01:38 PM
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I totally agree with you that the contest should be accessible to anyone, regardless of what camera they own. And I've seen some beautiful pictures taken with point-and-shoots. Personally I think Moose's shot is better than mine, because what he did was very difficult.

It is completely up to the people running the contest to decide the rules, and I want to be clear that I'm not trying to make anybody change anything for me. It's your house, not mine. But I do have a few more thoughts:

If I hadn't mentioned anything technical about the photo, and simply put it up with no text, then there would have been no issue and we wouldn't be having this discussion. I mean, the picture does not have a "panoramic" aspect ratio, and it doesn't cover a ridiculously wide field of view, and it's only 650x355. The very same image could have been made with a point-&-shoot. In fact, even the high-res panorama could have been made with any point-&-shoot that has options for fully manual exposure control. Perhaps there would have been more noise and less detail in the shadow areas; I'm not sure, because my own point-&-shoot is several years old, and I don't know how much they've improved since then.

Also, my photoshop skills are certainly not "extensive". I know how to use less than 0.1% of the program. All I do are Levels, Curves, Saturation, and Unsharp Mask. The exact same features are available in free software like The Gimp. This is certainly not inaccessible to anyone, and can be learned in half an hour, especially for smart people here.

Many point-&-shoot cameras today also come with built-in panorama stitching, which would have handled this panorama just fine (because it is not an overly wide field of view and requires no warping). So I think the argument about "expensive cameras" is a red herring. The photographer makes pictures; the camera is a tool for doing that.

If you want me to prove a point I can go out with my old point-&-shoot (a Canon SD700 IS) this week and take a panorama. It won't be quite as pretty because this is Los Angeles, where the sky is a sickly bluish-grey and we don't get any weather from July-October. But I'll see what I can do.

Anyway, if this is not allowed then I won't enter panoramas in future contests. The point isn't to make you change the rules; I guess I just feel like opening a discussion on what constitutes a "manipulated photo".
Borek
#31
Jul19-09, 01:44 PM
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Quote Quote by Ben Niehoff View Post
I guess I just feel like opening a discussion on what constitutes a "manipulated photo".
Been there. This is Pandora's box
Ben Niehoff
#32
Jul19-09, 02:06 PM
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Quote Quote by Borek View Post
Been there. This is Pandora's box
Yeah, you're probably right. So is everything else on the internet, though. :)
ZapperZ
#33
Jul19-09, 07:00 PM
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Quote Quote by Ben Niehoff View Post

If I hadn't mentioned anything technical about the photo, and simply put it up with no text, then there would have been no issue and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
No one can check if you took the pictures either. If one is willing to cheat simply to win in a public forum weekly photo contest simply for "bragging rights" (after all, we're not giving away any prizes), then there's nothing that can be done. At some point, this will no longer be fun.

Photo stitching is photo manipulation. I didn't realize that this is a "gray area".

Zz.
Ben Niehoff
#34
Jul19-09, 07:15 PM
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Willing to cheat? Where are you getting this stuff? I already said I won't submit any panoramas again in the future, that I want the contest to remain accessible to anyone, and that you make the rules and that's fine with me.

I don't even care about winning. My vote was going to be for Moose even if my picture hadn't been disqualified.

Do you have any thoughts on the ideas I actually raised? Such as a panorama carefully assembled in the darkroom and then scanning the final print?
Borek
#35
Jul20-09, 02:51 AM
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Calm down, Ben. What Zz aims at is that we can't check whether the picture is not excesivelly photoshopped or taken by the person who submits it for the competition, we have to take word of the person for granted. There were situations in the past when pictures were rejected as we were able to prove they were just copied from someones page, there were cases in the past when I was almost sure picture was photoshopped beyond basic operations, but I was not able to prove it. That happened before and it will happen in the future.

Quote Quote by Ben Niehoff View Post
Do you have any thoughts on the ideas I actually raised? Such as a panorama carefully assembled in the darkroom and then scanning the final print?
Yes, the rules allow for a gray area. Yes, they don't take everything into acount. Yes, in effect in many aspects they are wrong and already are manipulated by cameras, software built into cameras and software accompanying cameras. That happens in every non-trivial system (remember Godel? ). Going over these details and trying to poke a hole is a sure way of destroying good atmosphere we have here and doesn't lead anywhere.

Have I mentioned Pandora's box?
matthyaouw
#36
Jul26-09, 03:50 AM
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Hello, back from my hols so I can run the contests again. Thanks to everyone who kept this going when I was gone

As far as my stance on the manipulation issue goes, I have no intention of changing the rules ZapperZ used in his time running the contest. This does mean simple stuff such as panoramas, b&w conversion etc is ruled out, as is a whole host of other stuff. I kind of feel that it would be opening the floodgates if I were to allow these things in. For example if I were to allow stitched panoramas, why not stitched Photo planets which more or less work on the same principle, but are certainly what I'd call a special effect. As far as I'm concerned, the same applies to darkroom stuff as it does to digital. If you've done anything fancy to it in processing, it can't be entered.


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