## perpetual motion and free energy possible???

 Quote by omin Can a Perpetual Motion Believer prove energy comes from nothing? Since nothing is an abscence of what a human can sense, perpetual motion can never be proven, because someone would have to first prove nothing(literally) was sensed and then energy appeared. Not knowing the origin of energy is not the same as saying it comes from nothing. The energy that exists, which is the only energy we know, can be proven to flow from one state to another, therefore it can be proven to come from something.
There is a new book on the market called, "Guerra's Law". It talks about the "Law of Time, Energy And Motion & Law of Origin". This two laws basically state that all things that are put into motion, from a ground state, a beginning, a point of origin, will eventually come to a grinding halt. The book helps explain what is finite and what is not. It also helps explain that perpetual motion machines and energy are finite and not infinite.

 Mentor ...which directly contradicts Newton's 1st law and is therefore wrong.

 Quote by russ_watters ...which directly contradicts Newton's 1st law and is therefore wrong.
O.K. But, what about Newton's 3nd law of motion? It states: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Mentor
 Quote by Guadalupe O.K. But, what about Newton's 3nd law of motion? It states: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Yes, I forgot - it also contradicts Newton's 3rd. Thanks.

 Quote by russ_watters Yes, I forgot - it also contradicts Newton's 3rd. Thanks.
Correction. No, it does not.

Newton's 3rd Law of Motion has a ground state, a beginning, a point of origin, making this law finite. But, Newton's 1st Law of Motion does not have a ground state, a beginning, a point of origin, making this law infinite.

Based on this information one may see that Newton's 1st & 3rd Law of Motion contradicting each other.

But, Newton's 3rd Law of Motion does agree with the Law of Time, Energy And Motion & Law of Origin.

 Quote by Guadalupe There is a new book on the market called, "Guerra's Law". It talks about the "Law of Time, Energy And Motin & Law of Origin". This two laws basically state that all things have a ground state, a beginning, a point of origin, for without it, nothing can exit forward in motion. Not even energy.
When you say something has a beginning, do you mean something has no cause or has an unknown cause?

 Quote by omin When you say something has a beginning, do you mean something has no cause or has an unknown cause?
All things have a beginning, all things have a cause and all the unknowns are known. The question is, how far back in time, history, past, does one want to go to find the answers to where it all began, its point of origin, its beginning, its ground state. Example: Energy. How far back do you want to go to find the answer to your question? If you do find the answer to your question, are you willing to accept the truth in what you find? Not many do.

 [QUOTE=Guadalupe]All things have a beginning, all things have a cause and all the unknowns are known. ...How far back do you want to go to find the answer to your question?...If you do find the answer to your question, are you willing to accept the truth in what you find?QUOTE] 'Cause to effect' to me will always be a dispostion of the all the elements that exist in any given situation. The first position of the elements are the cause and the disposition of the element is the effect. When I think of beginning, I see the limit of my knowledge. To say all the unknowns are known can only be accepted by me at this present time if all the elements of the unknown are what is known by me because they reside in the present or are in memory from direct experience. Although, the form they appear in has a shape which is only known when it occurs, whether in the objective world or determined by a persons subject circumstance.
 Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor Staff Emeritus Yes, IF the laws of physics which prevent perpetual motion were not true, then you could have perptetual motion!

 Quote by HallsofIvy Yes, IF the laws of physics which prevent perpetual motion were not true, then you could have perptetual motion!

Perpetual motion machines never did violate any laws of physics.

Perpetual motion machines are finite, not infinite.

Perpetual motion machines are simply misunderstood.

 Quote by Guadalupe Perpetual motion machines never did violate any laws of physics. Perpetual motion machines were simply misunderstood. Perpetual is not infinite but finite.
There are two types of PMMs - the 1st and 2nd kind. These are defined as machines that violate the 1st or 2nd laws of thermodynamics, respectively. Anything else is, by definition, not a PMM.

Edit: and there is no such thing as "free energy" - energy has to come from somewhere, else you have a PMM of the 1st kind.

 Quote by alpha_wolf There are two types of PMMs - the 1st and 2nd kind. These are defined as machines that violate the 1st or 2nd laws of thermodynamics, respectively. Anything else is, by definition, not a PMM. Edit: and there is no such thing as "free energy" - energy has to come from somewhere, else you have a PMM of the 1st kind.
Perpetual motion machines (PMMs)of the 1st, 2nd, or of any kind, does not or has ever violated any laws of physics.

Infinite meaning, "with no beginning and no end". All PMMs of any kind, are finite, because they all have a point of origin, a ground state, a beginning.

Laws of Physics state, "Anything with a beginning, will come to an end". Again, PMMs are simply misunderstood.

But, if you want to talk about "free energy". My money is on solar panel energy generators or windmill generators.

Mentor
 Quote by Guadalupe Perpetual motion machines (PMMs)of the 1st, 2nd, or of any kind, does not and have never violated any laws of physics.
Reread what alpha posted. By definition, they violate the laws of physics.
 Laws of Physics state, "Anything with a beginning, will come to an end".
There is no law of physics that says that.

Guadalupe, we are patient people, but our patience is finite. You are welcome to try to overturn the laws of physics in the Theory Development forum, but not in other forums. Other forums are for discussing the real laws of physics.

 Quote by russ_watters Reread what alpha posted. By definition, they violate the laws of physics. There is no law of physics that says that. Guadalupe, we are patient people, but our patience is finite. You are welcome to try to overturn the laws of physics in the Theory Development forum, but not in other forums. Other forums are for discussing the real laws of physics.
Forgive me for not being too specific. But, can anyone give me one example, by difinition, that is infinite in this whole universe? Just one?

Oh! God is a given. Sorry.

 Quote by Guadalupe Perpetual motion machines (PMMs)of the 1st, 2nd, or of any kind, does not and have never violated any laws of physics. Infinite meaning, "with no beginning and no end". All PMMs of any kind, are finite, because they all have a point of origin, a ground state, a beginning. Laws of Physics state, "Anything with a beginning, will come to an end". Again, PMMs are simply misunderstood.
Guadalupe, it seems it is you who has misunderstood PMMs. I do not blame you - the word "perpetual" is rather missleading; and the word "motion" is somewhat misplaced (see below). As I wrote earlier, PMMs are defined as machines that violate one of the first two laws of thermodynamics. Typically, these are machines that are supposed to produce continuous motion, hence the name. They are not expected to run forever, but only for as long as their structure remains intact.

To be honest, PMMs shouldn't really be called PMMs. Nothing in their definition talks about motion. And in fact perpetual motion is possible, and is occuring all the time. The earth is in perpetual motion around the sun and around its own axis, the same goes for the moon, the other planets, and so on. What is not possible, is to produce work from such motion.

 But if you want to talk about "free energy". My bet is on solar energy generator or windmill generator.
These examples are not free energy, in the sence that energy is not being created out of nothing. It is simply being converted from one form to another. And that is indeed quite possible.

Mentor
 Quote by Guadalupe Forgive me for not being too specific. But, can anyone give me one example, by difinition, that is infinite in this whole universe? Just one?
We're not even sure if the universe itself is infinite (though it looks like it may be). In any case, this has nothing to do with why what you are saying isn't physics.