On the issue of kids not pursuing engineering/science/math these days

chiro

In australia we are trying to get more scientists and engineers by reducing the cost of the degree.

I've found when speaking to other people when they find out I'm doing math is that they say "Ohhh" and then they say something along the lines "Wow you must be smart".

It seems that a lot of people have bad experiences with learning math and although math does not equal science, a lot of scientific endeavours require math in order to think logically and move from idea to establishing a theory or conjecture or hypothesis.

Personally I think the only way this is going to change is to get skilled people in math (think uni professors and lecturers) to go to schools and teach kids not only what math is all about but why we do math. If people aren't interested then fine to each their own. But if they are interested but struggling then that is where someone skilled can step in correcting the mistakes and perceptions of that student.

Another thing I've found is that in general education is a thing whereby in most subjects students aren't actively engaged in learning, they are simply tested on how well they can memorize and slightly process what they are meant to know. I believe that people in general do not learn with a bunch of theorems shoved down their throat but learn through discovery.

Another thing with science is that there is the perception that one can't make sufficient amounts of money in that career. I would argue against this if the student had business acumen and learned to combine science with business and go where the money is. Many people have done this and come out very well in the end.

If we are to get more people into these areas we need to think about what the perceived incentives are. Money only goes so far. Recognition goes pretty far. People like recognition. People want to acknowledged and rewarded for doing something hard.

I think one thing with science and engineering is that people have to realize that they
can do more than just engineering or science after they complete that degree. You can tell people about MBA's advisory or consultant jobs, political jobs, development roles the list is endless. If students realized that degrees didn't confine their options then I think students would be more willing and open to undertaking these degrees. Thats just my opinion though.

Sankaku

While I like to think of myself as an optimist, in my darker moments I have to agree with you. We still have to do our best to make sure non-science students leave school/university with a solid understanding of what science actually is. Our future depends on it. Without that understanding, people will continue to make incredibly destructive decisions - both at a personal and at a national level.

avant-garde

Yeah, but what about engineers/programmers who work in the corporate world?

TMFKAN64

Engineers in industry do well... but the "big bucks" are in management/marketing/sales. Which, to be honest, is probably where they should be. Companies need engineers to build a product. But it is *far* more important that they are able to sell this product for revenue.

Good marketing beats good engineering every single time.

DukeofDuke

At making money, yes, not at making better products.

Tiger99

You might be pleased to know that the CSIRO's launched a program to do just that: http://austmaths.wordpress.com/2009/...ns-in-schools/
Or maybe you already knew?

Troponin

My early years were a perfect storm for producing students that did not want to pursue math or science.
First is "no child left behind." I don't know what others take is on this, but in my experience it is more along the lines of "no child allowed to excel."
Classes are taught at the level of the average student....at the pace of the slowest students.

Add to that the fact that being smart is "lame."
It's "cool" to be good at sports. Being smart, especially in math and science is (in my experience) the exact opposite of cool.
It's not just the kids that perpetuate this. Even our math teachers would make jokes and innuendos about math being for "dorks."

It took me 29 years to finally "accept" math. I was so sure I hated it that I never let myself realize I love it.

Hell, even today, when my wife and I visit my parents and my Father asks me about "life," the second I mention Physics, Math, or studying, he says something along the lines of "I gotta party with you!" or "That sounds like my kind of Saturday night. You must be a BLAST to hang out with."

I'd have to guess there are a lot of people my age out there who could/would have gone into math or science if some of the above things affected them a little bit different.

bleedblue1234

The problem with most students today is that most fields in most sciences (economics, physics, mathematics, biology, etc.) are so very specialized and require literally years and thousands and thousands of hours of effort to truly appreciate and do revolutionary work in the field.

I don't think there will be many Isaac Newtons or even Einsteins running around as we move well into the 21st century, just because even the smartest of minds can only accomplish so much, and much of what is quote "easy" to discover has been done so already.

Maybe with further advances in computer technology and a genetic engineering we can create far more intelligent humans, but as it stands right now to do truly revolutionary work in a field of science requires years of dedication for a cause most people see as fruitless or "whats the point?".

There are no more "renaissance" men... and with the death of many of the true "famous" scientists, so goes most peoples interest in science itself...

Phyisab****

Lack of attractive women.

chiro

Hey there thanks for the heads up. Thats great news, a great initiative.

TMFKAN64

Well, of course. But we were talking about where the "big bucks" were... and unsurprisingly, they're with the people who bring in the money.

Sankaku

This is a significant problem. If you are lucky to go to an elite school, this kind of peer response is more rare, but for most of us it is a huge obstacle. I can only think that it is a defence reaction to feeling inadequate when someone you know is smarter than you (or works harder than you).

In schools, the teaching is only half the battle. The 'learning culture' is the other half. If kids are actively discouraged from learning by their peers, it almost doesn't matter what kind of excellent science teachers are in the schools. I am a firm believer in equal education for all, but stuff like this makes me realize why some parents send their kids to private schools.

It evens out by University to some degree, because students are paying for their own education (mostly) and have found their path by then (mostly). However, for many people the damage has already been done.

I think it isn't an issue of enough people going into the hard sciences. Rather it is an issue with non-scientists having a solid science background. If everyone who went through university had to have decent skills of rational scientific thought, we wouldn't see so many 'well educated' idiots making policy and business decisions that we all regret.

Office_Shredder

In all fairness, No Child Left Behind was passed way after you left your early years

Troponin

Fair enough. I didn't really word it well anyway. My formative years were a perfect storm for "learning" that school was pointless.

The classes were still taught at the level of the average student at the pace of the slowest students. In a situation like that, it is very easy for the top students to lose interest unless they have someone to influence them against that.
Not that I was one of those top students.....I wasn't.

I really just used the no child left behind so that I could say it should be called "no child allowed to excel."

Regardless, I come from a blue collar family in a blue collar town. My beliefs growing up were that sports were what was "important" about school. Math was lame, studying was for dorks, and you just had fun playing sports and partying until it was time to get a shitty job and start a family.

I'm not blaming my upbringing for that, I just wish I had the maturity to realize how stupid that view is.

My high school Algebra teacher would make jokes about how we'd never need algebra in the "real world," but it shows colleges that you're willing to suffer through it anyway.

Like I said, my Father pokes fun at me for going back to school. If we're at a family gathering, as soon as the topic of me going back to school comes up....it turns into a mess of sarcastic comments like "you must be a RIOT to party with!"
Then I hear "what are you going to do with that math?"
"will you ever use that stuff"
"what so fun about adding numbers all day?"

I actually tried to tell my Mother that math isn't "really" about numbers....but she argued with me that I was wrong...


I'm sure it's over-dramatized, but you read about Feynman's school years and you hear about his physics professor giving him an Advanced Calc book, or how his math teacher would give him and his buddy special problems to take home and try to work out. That would never have happened when I was in school. Hell, I think the physics professor would be punished for not making the student follow along with what he was supposed to be learning.
And if a kid were staying after hours with a teacher and becoming friendly...the teacher would be punished for giving that kid special treatment.


I really don't want to sound like I'm whining about my school years. I loved school. I was captain of the football and baseball teams. I was a two time small college All-american in football. I had a great time in school. I just wish I let myself take a different view about education. As a kid I dreamed about being a scientist. I was certain I would be the first astronaut archaeologist who figured out how to travel faster than the speed of light. Unfortunately my experiences made it harder to maintain that view, and very easy to take the view I did.


I sound like a major f'n cry baby.....

sportsstar469

i know this may sound a bit....idk far fetched to some of you guys on this forum. but not everybody is a math/science expert, or has a passion to do any of that stuff. and yes not everyone wants to learn something hard because they are lazy. some people just cant do math no matter how much they try. i am a 19 year old college student..turning 20 in a week or two, and i am only i ncollege algebra/trig. we havent even covered the trig yet, but i do not find the algebra portion easy like most of you guys here would. hell i struggle finding the range of a function from a formula.some people just arent good at math. would you guys rather have everyone puruse a science degree and have non competent individuals trying to perform scientific breakthroughs?

Sankaku

I agree that not everyone needs to go into the sciences.
I think there is a small minority of people who really have difficulty with math (like a math dyslexia). However, most people who think they are bad at math have just been robbed by their schooling at an earlier age. If you are having trouble with algebra at age 19, then there are 3 possibilities:

1) You really are bad at math: Unlikely, but possible.
2) You are a slow starter: In which case, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you could make up for lost time and do well.
3) You are just as capable at math as most of us, but have been confused by bad teaching and negative peer pressure (see troponin's post) and now feel out of your depth. Again, if you have good teaching and motivation starting now, you will catch up fine.

Option number 3 is very very common.

symbolipoint

Let me say something that will rile some nerves here: Students have better opportunity to learn Mathematics if they stay out of the common typical minimum Math courses in high school but attend only the college preparatory Math courses of Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, MathAnalysis/PreCalculus/Statistics/IntroCalculus. The material is more thorough and of better quality and motivation (what kind) is often clearer, and the material is taught often from teachers who have a deeper Mathematical background than from non-college prep. teachers.

I am NOT insisting that this is universally true. It is only a partly experienced impression.