Turning a friend into a girlfriend

Astronuc

Actually and legally it can. Once one reaches the legal limit, then one's judgement is impaired (legally and otherwise), and one's ability to consent is impaired (void), i.e. legally one cannot consent. Some people have impaired judgement before they reach the legal limit of alcohol in the system.

One should never take advantage of another who is drunk!

cristo

It's semantics, and I don't think that article really says anything new. The fact of the matter is that unless the prosecution of any case can show, beyond reasonable doubt, that a defendant is guilty, then he is legally innocent. This means proving that the alleged victim is telling the truth, and that she was incapable of consenting, or that consent was not given.

cristo

But what is the legal limit? I'm not aware that there is one for this situation. Are you claiming that the legal driving limit should be the appropriate limit to use?


By the way, I don't like the way this discussion is heavily biased against men. If a woman is deemed incapable to give consent after consuming any alcohol, then why is a man able to give consent? Why, then, would a man be 'guilty' of 'date rape' if a couple have relations after a few drinks, and the woman would be the victim? It is perfectly plausible for a man to have relations with a women when intoxicated whom he would not have the same feelings for when sober (which essentially seems to be one of the definitions people are using).

junglebeast

It's really not a logical argument.

Does this mean that people with mental disabilities should be disallowed from romantic activities at all times?

Due to the wide range of intelligence, one person's heavily impaired judgment may be much better than another person's peak judgment.

Alcohol is not the only thing that impairs judgment. Arguably, our judgment is always impaired to various degrees by all sorts of things. A recent study showed that male judgment becomes temporarily impaired while speaking to attractive women (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...tty-women.html )

Does this mean a male should not be able to give consent to romantic relations with attractive women?

Whenever a person is distracted by something else, that impairs their judgment.

A person may at one point in time be committed to their relationship, but then when they get horny, all of a sudden those beliefs might be overshadowed by a desire for sex. The fact that people are willing to do things while horny that they would not be willing to do while not-horny is further evidence of this.

The whole premise of people having constant identities that make logical decisions is, in my opinion, severely unrealistic. Your decisions are all based on naturally released drugs that control your mood to begin with! Adrenaline, dopamine, whatever...throwing a bit of alcohol into the mix doesn't really change anything because we are ALWAYS under the influence of drugs. In fact its silly to use the word "under the influence" because that implies that we have a non-influenced state, when the reality is that all our thoughts are just the result of different chemical interactions...

Obviously, there comes a point where a person is so influenced by a drug that they are so far from their normal state that they cannot give consent. For example, when a person is in a catatonic state, or stumbling all over the place incapable of forming coherent sentences. However, a person who is still able to make conversation is still fully capable of giving consent in my opinion.

Mk

Yes.

WhoWee

This is the original post "I'm one of her best friends, she tells me about her boyfriends, her problems, everything, She text-messages me almost everyday. We hang out together at her place, cook together, watch dvds. I make her laugh, comfort her when she is down, whole program. I'm not ugly, either. But still we are just friends. It sucks.

She is very cute, she constantly has men chasing after her. She also has the problem becoming friendly with men since they rather would turn her into their girlfriend than becoming friends.

So just telling her, I think would not do. She sees me 100 percent as her friend.

So what to do? How can I get out of the friendship zone?"

The female in this scenario is uncomfortable with advances from friends. Adding a little alcohol to loosen her up and facilitate making a move is just plain bad advice. He's already "in", he doesn't need to penetrate her inner circle and gain her trust - but he does need to keep it.

On the other hand, if he doesn't respect her feelings, doesn't care about their friendship, and is only concerned about improving his odds of scoring - he can get drunk and act like a fool, then blame it on the alcohol. But somehow, I think she might deserve better and he will regret his behavior in the future.

junglebeast

Note: never offer wine or champagne to WhoWee on a romantic evening. He/she is liable to think you are trying to take advantage.

Mk

Every single drink the plaintiff took from the first to the last was his or her own decision, and the plaintiff thus chose to be physically impaired. Responsibility is never excluded because of poor decision-making.

WhoWee

WhoWee is about 6'3"/250 pounds and has a wife - so just keep your hands (and lips) to yourself.

You made an interesting distinction though - when you said "on a romantic evening". However, she won't know it's a romantic evening until he makes his move and springs his surprise. I rate his odds at less than 50%.

Alternatively, I think he'd do a lot better with a bowl of popcorn, a movie, a blanket, low lighting, a turned down thermostat and good timing. If he waits until the situation generally does feel right and point out the obvious - that "hey this feels great"-> get a positive response (doesn't it?) -> then, I just realized I like being with you more than all of the girls I've been dating -> and get another positive response -> then, gradually move the conversation forward.

He might even point out one of the many movies where long lost relatives kissed and said yuck! Maybe propose a simple kissing test (while under a blanket, talking softly, in close proximity) if there's no magic -> laugh it off and make a huge joke out of it - and don't go there again. Even if she likes the kiss - go slow, tell her he wants to be sure, not ruin the friendship and let her declare herself. When she's ready, it will be well worth the effort.

A good salesman sells the whole package, gets a lot of small positive responses, deals with all of the questions and concerns and moves to a logical conclusion - the deal has to be a win-win for all. By taking small steps they will both figure out what they want. Who knows, she might kiss like a camel?

Mk

You're a Love machine, WhoWee.

Galteeth

I agree with WhoWe's point here. In this context, it is definitely wrong. Real world morality, especially sexual morality, is very dependent on context and nuance. Unfortunately, I think there are many men who have a very difficult time understanding these things. I think it is partially because of a cultural approach that implies a collectivist view of women. The phrase "what women really want" for example implies that everyone in the category of "women" must want the same things by membership in tha group. This is absurd, just like it would be absurd to say what "black" people want or what "white" people want or whatever.

This also makes specific moral judgements more complex, since you can't apply a general rule to each case. For example, there are certainly some women who drink alcohol with the explicit point of lowering their sexual inhibitions. There are others who have their inhibitions lowered, but who weren't intending on this, and thus can feel taken advantage of even in what is seemingly a consensual act. To complicate matters further, there are some women who will take alcohol with the intent of lowering their inhibitions AND will after the fact pretend to be part of the second group so as to alleviate some of the negative social connotations with female promiscuity.
Our society is still far too squeamish on matters of sex to discuss these ideas openly. The realistic option that most men take is to pick up a sense of discernment so as to identify which situation is which. To play it safe, probably the best thing to do is to wait to get clear signals from a woman before proceeding (i.e. don't push yourself). Or in other words, let a woman select you, especially if there is alchohol involved.

On a different note, at the risk of sounding sexist, i do think there is, and should be, a double standard when it comes to women and men on this issue for simple biological reasons. It is extremely difficult to rape a man (if you're a woman) by using alchohol, since this inhibits their sexual functioning. You could still molest them, but again at the risk of sounding sexist, I think biological imperatives make this kind of experience much more traumatic (generally) for women then for men. And yes, i know i am somewhat contradicting my earlier point, which is why I said generally.

brf4n

make a move

if she likes it -> gf

if she doesn't -> find another girl to like

TheStatutoryApe

The double standard that Cristo and Junglebeast took issue with (and which I actually agree with them on) is that the female in 'date rape' scenarios where there is consensual sex while under the influence is deemed to not be capable of taking responsibility for her actions while the male is generally expected to be responsible for their actions.

Astronuc

Certainly with the first drink. After the first drink, judgement becomes impaired. That's why it is illegal to operate a motor vehicle with a certain level of alcohol in one's blood stream.

Yes people make poor judgements, and that is their responsibility - but that doesn't mean one should take advantage of them - nor does it exhonerate one who takes advantage of them.

Whenever I was out drinking and connected with a woman who had been drinking, I'd make sure she got back to her place safely, behind locked doors, before I left. Then I'd either go home or wander the streets or campus.

Evo

The person may have gotten drunk, initially from bad decisions, then once drunk, most people don't have the reasoning to stop. Are you saying if a girl gets drunk that it's ok to rape her because she caused herself to become impaired? A person that impaired isn't capable of making sound decisions or even resisting in a lot of cases. Taking advantage of someone in an impaired condition is abhorable, and more than likely guilty, in the case of sex, of rape. A woman can't consent in that condition.