How could the Oxygen atom be multiply ionized and excited to at least it's 4th level?


by HMS-776
Tags: atom, ionized, multiply, oxygen
HMS-776
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#1
Sep9-09, 09:50 PM
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How could the Oxygen atom be stripped of at least 4 electrons and excited at the least to it's 4th energy level?


I came across a device which claims to do this with Solid State Lasers (LED's) and a high voltage oscillating field....Just wondering how it would work since LED's only go to about
200nm. The inventor of the device claims Resonance is induced in the electrons of the atom, High voltage fields ionize the atoms, and the LED's increase the atoms energy level in cascading steps.

Can anyone tell me how the ways this could be done using common parts and methods.

I was thinking the best way perhaps would be to use photoexcitation and high voltage fields to create a electron avalanche which would cause collision ionization and excitation of the atoms.


What other ways could this be done???
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Bob_for_short
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#2
Sep10-09, 04:25 AM
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If not in a hot environment (hot plasma), then an electron beam from discharge and/or resonance photo-effects may do this, you are right.
alxm
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#3
Sep10-09, 04:49 AM
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It takes a pretty hefty arc discharge to produce quadruply-ionized oxygen.

But I'm skeptical, the way this is presented sounds a bit hokey. "Fourth level" isn't how you'd typically characterize an excited state, and LEDs aren't lasers.

HMS-776
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#4
Sep10-09, 05:04 PM
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How could the Oxygen atom be multiply ionized and excited to at least it's 4th level?


The "Fourth Level" was just how it was explained to me.
There are a lot of notes in this guys work, trouble is he made it confusing as a means of protecting it from being stolen.

I believe the end product reasults in the ionization and decay of the hydrogen atom during combustion (when mixed with ionixed, excited oxygen as long as the oxygen atoma are excited high enough to ionize the hydrogen atom), resulting in excessive energy output.

I'm just trying to understand how it could be done. So far I know he used only High Voltage Fields and LED's (which only now go to about 200nm).
Astronuc
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#5
Sep10-09, 06:08 PM
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Basically one has to determine the environmental conditions under which OIV+ would exist in more or less equilibrium.

It could be an electric discharge, an EM field (UV, X-ray, gamma as in a star) or a hot gas (plasma). The rate of ionization would have to equal the rate of recombination to make the system more or less steady-state (equilibrium).

The Saha (or Saha-Boltzmann) equation describes the situation. See the figure for nitrogen - which is reasonably close to oxygen.
http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/...0/ael/saha.htm
HMS-776
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#6
Sep10-09, 06:26 PM
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Thanks for the link!!!

I believe the Electric discharge or plasma is what we're dealing with here. From what I have read the purpose of this device is to create unstable, excited atoms (Rydberg Oxygen). The device's pulsed electrical fields also include an Electron sink (when the high voltage fields are off) to prevent the recombination of electrons to the atoms.

What really confuses me is the claim of exciting the atoms using LEDs which at the time of the deivice were only available to 250nm I'm guessing. I have been told by others studying the device that the Oxygen atoms can be excited using 410 nm, 634 nm, and white LED's???

Where I get confused is the talk of induced resonance and photon absorbtion?

Is there any case in which the atom's absorbtion wavelengths change?

Will an ionized atoms absorbtion wavelengths be different than a stable atom?
Astronuc
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#7
Sep10-09, 07:00 PM
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The shorter the wavelength, the higher the energy. I'm not sure how much ionization, i.e. to what level 635 nm would obtain, nor 410 nm, which would be more capable than 635 nm, and 250 nm would be more capable of ionizing more levels.

I would recommend determining the ionization levels of O-I, II, III and IV, in ev or J and comparing those values to the energies of photons with wavelengths of 635 nm (red), 410 nm (blue/violet), and 210 nm (UV). Those values likely depend on the electronic state (energy level) of whatever produces the laser light.

Example: http://www.rgblase.com/635nm.htm

http://www.rgblase.com/405nm.htm

http://www.coherent.com/Lasers/index...4&title=Radius

The point of the examples is that 'off-the-shelf' lasers have fixed wavelengths.


Doppler effect would change, hot atoms moving very fast, would change the absorption energy.

The first ionization level requires less energy than the second, and the second requires less energy than the third, and third less than fourth. In other words, the energy required for each successive ionization increases.

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~l...yinfo/ips.html

The first ionization potential of atomic O is 13.618 eV, then 35.116 eV, 54.934 eV and 77.412 eV for the II, III and IVth ionization potentials. So red light would not ionize atomic O, but might excite some lower levels.


I guess the question is now - is one trying to get the fourth emission line of the outermost electron, or is one trying to get emission lines associated with OIV+. That's a big difference.

cf - Balmer lines of H
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hyde.html#c4
Bob S
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#8
Sep10-09, 09:35 PM
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Here is some information on the binding energies of single electrons on hi-Z atoms.
The binding energy of a single electron in the nth shell of a nucleus with charge Z is

eV = 13.6 Z2/n2 electron volts.

So so strip out the last electron in the S shell of oxygen would take about 870 electron volts (about 14 Angstroms). This is a soft x ray.
HMS-776
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#9
Sep10-09, 10:43 PM
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Just reading about the Stark Effect and how it allows for a broader range of wavelengths to be used to excite an atom.

But even reading about it I don't see how one could determine the necessary wavelengths required to get the atom to it's 4th Ionization Energy level which is what I am aiming for???

Seems to me one would have to know the operating factors (strength & possibly frequency, etc of the E field as well as ionization)???
alxm
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#10
Sep11-09, 08:43 AM
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Quote Quote by HMS-776 View Post
The "Fourth Level" was just how it was explained to me.
There are a lot of notes in this guys work, trouble is he made it confusing as a means of protecting it from being stolen.

I believe the end product reasults in the ionization and decay of the hydrogen atom during combustion (when mixed with ionixed, excited oxygen as long as the oxygen atoma are excited high enough to ionize the hydrogen atom), resulting in excessive energy output.
This all sounds even hokeyer. It's far easier to ionize hydrogen atoms than to quadruply-ionize oxygen. (see Bob S's formula: It's 13.6 eV, the Rydberg constant) And if the liquid phase doesn't bother you, you'll have a concentration of 10^-7 mol/l of them in ordinary water. (pH 7)

What would the hydrogen 'decay' into? Excess energy? Is this yet another 'free-energy device'?
Bob S
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#11
Sep11-09, 02:38 PM
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Quote Quote by alxm View Post
What would the hydrogen 'decay' into? Excess energy? Is this yet another 'free-energy device'?
Experiments have looked for hydrogen (proton) decay into a neutral pion and positron, and have determined that the proton lifetime is over 1033 years. See
http://aps.arxiv.org/abs/0903.0676
HMS-776
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#12
Sep11-09, 04:15 PM
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Quite interesting stuff here.

I believe I've come to the conclusion, after reading about the Stark effect, that as the Electric field is increased, the absorption spectrum broadens, so it becomes easier to perform the effect, possibly with light in the visible range if the E field is high enough!

What I plan on doing if I decide to build the device is use a srtong E field and a group of lights all emitting at the same frequency, which will be able to perform the job taking into account the E field.


Now I just need to determine how strong of an E field I need and the spacing of the field???

Can anyone here give me some good links explaining the Stark Effect?
Redbelly98
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#13
Sep11-09, 07:16 PM
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Quote Quote by HMS-776 View Post
How could the Oxygen atom be stripped of at least 4 electrons and excited at the least to it's 4th energy level?

I came across a device which claims to do this with Solid State Lasers (LED's) and a high voltage oscillating field....Just wondering how it would work since LED's only go to about
200nm.
It's possible that you have misread what was said. It sounds like they were talking about laser diodes, sometimes abbreviated as LD's, and that you misread it as LED's, which are commonplace in our everyday lives but different than laser diodes.

Many lasers operate on 4 energy levels, and "the 4th energy level" may be referring to that. Or it really is the 4th excited state of O4+

The inventor of the device claims Resonance is induced in the electrons of the atom, High voltage fields ionize the atoms, and the LED's increase the atoms energy level in cascading steps.
Okay, it sounds like the atoms are first ionized, perhaps in an electric arc discharge (the high voltage field?), or using a high intensity microwave field or an intense laser beam. Then a laser diode (?) is used to excite the ions. Probably a multi-photon process, i.e. the ion absorbs several moderate-energy (visible wavelength) photons to reach the excited level rather than absorbing a single high-energy (short wavelength) photon.

Do you have a link, or can you name the reference for what you read? That might help us figure out what is going on.
HMS-776
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#14
Sep12-09, 12:55 AM
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Here are a few notes taken from the patent covering the device:

"The released atomic gases are next ionized and electrically charged in a vessel while being subjected to a further energy source that promotes inter-particle impact in the gas at an increased overall energy level. Finally, the atomic particles in the excited gas, having achieved successively higher energy levels, are subjected to a laser or electromagnetic wave energy source that produces atomic destabilization and the final release of thermal explosive energy. Engineering design parameters based on known theoretical principles of atomic physics determine the incremental levels of electrical and wave energy input required to produce resonance in each stage of the system. Instead of a dampening effect, a resonant energization of the molecule, atom or ion provides a compounding energy interaction resulting in the final energy release."

"...the gas atoms become elongated during electron removal as the atoms are ionized. Laser, or light wave energy of a predetermined frequency is injected into a containment vessel in a gas ionization process. The light energy absorbed by voltage stimulated gas nuclei causes destabilization of gas ions still further. The absorbed laser energy causes the gas nuclei to increase in energy state, which, in turn, causes electron deflection to a higher orbital shell."

"The gas mixture is subjected to a pulsating, polar electric field whereby electrons of the gas atoms are distended in their orbital fields by reason of their subjection to electrical polar forces. The polar pulsating frequency applied is such that the pulsating electric field induces a resonance with respect to an election of the gas atom. A cascade effect results and the energy level of specific resonating electron is increased in cascading, incremental steps.

Next, the gas atoms are ionized and subjected to electro-magnetic wave energy having a predetermined frequency to induce a further election resonance in the ion, whereby the energy level of the election is successively increased. Electrons are extracted from the resonating ions while such ions are in an increased energy state to destabilize the nuclear electron configuration of said ions; and the gas mixture of destabilized ions is thermally ignited."

"The gases are continually exposed to a pulsating laser or other electromagnetic wave energy source together with a high intensity oscillating voltage field that occurs within the cell between electrodes or conductive plates of opposite electrical polarity."

"An electrical circuit of the type shown in FIG. 4 provides a pulsating, polar electric field to the gas mixture as illustrated in FIG. 3A, whereby electrons of the gas atoms are distended in their orbital fields by reason of their subjection to electrical polar forces, changing from the state conceptually illustrated by FIG. 3B to that of FIG. 3C, at a frequency such that the pulsating electric field induces a resonance with respect to electrons of the gas atoms. The energy level of the resonant electrons is thereby increased in cascading, incremental steps. A further electric field to ionize said gas atoms is applied and an electromagnetic wave energy source for subjecting the ionized gas atoms to wave energy of a predetermined frequency to induce a further electron resonance in the ion, whereby the energy level of the election is successively increased is an additional element of the apparatus as shown in FIG. 3D."

"An electron sink, which may be in the form of the grid element shown in FIG. 5A, extracts further electrons from the resonating ions while such ions are in an increased energy state and destabilizes the nuclear electron configuration of the ions. The "extraction" of electrons by the sink means is coordinated with the pulsating electrical field of the resonant cavity produced by the circuit of FIG. 4, by means of an interconnected synchronization circuit..."


Here's a link to the patent.

http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/4826581.htm

I'm just trying to understand how the Oxygen atoms are ionized and excited in the patent as it's confusing to me.
alxm
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#15
Sep13-09, 07:22 PM
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Okay so this IS another 'free-energy device'.

Why waste your time with this crackpottery? It's not science. It doesn't work.

(If you read the forum rules, there's basically little tolerance for 'crackpot' or 'crank' around here, and the page you just linked to is almost stereotypically crackpot in nature)
HMS-776
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#16
Sep14-09, 06:27 AM
P: 63
I guess this ends the discussion.

I have seen this technology work. It seems whenever something like this comes to be people jump to conclusions without doing the proper research. That's ok though, I not only know this technology works I have seen it work! So tell me. How much time have you spent researching it? If you ask me the same question I'd tell you 3 years, And I recently found the last piece of the puzzle.
Redbelly98
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#17
Sep14-09, 07:01 AM
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It had sounded like you only read about this in the patent. Are you saying that, in addition, you have seen an actual working example of the device?
Bob S
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#18
Sep14-09, 10:42 AM
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Hello HMS-776
I think you are talking about having the innermost electron states n=1 and 2 of oxygen vacant (they have two electrons each). Based on the fact that the transition rate for the 2P-1S transition being 6.25 x 108 sec-1 in hydrogen, and (I think) varying as Z4, the empty inner atomic states will fill extremely fast (picoseconds). It will take over 870 eV (under 14 Angstrom x-ray) to remove a 1S electron, so the excitation field (radiation) will have to be extremely high. How do you get enough laser power (at 14 Angstroms?) to do this? Who has a 14-Angstrom laser?
Bob S


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