Temperature and spectral lines

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between temperature and spectral lines in the context of thermodynamics and astronomical inference. Participants explore how temperature can be defined, whether it is linked to kinetic energy or internal energy, and how this relates to the behavior of gas clouds in space.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that temperature can be inferred from the relative intensities of spectral lines, which indicate the distribution of excited states in a gas cloud.
  • Others argue that temperature is traditionally defined as proportional to the average kinetic energy of particles, including translational, rotational, and vibrational components.
  • A participant questions whether the temperature of a moving gas cloud is higher than that of a stationary one, raising the issue of frame dependence.
  • Some suggest that higher temperatures lead to more atoms being in excited states, thus affecting the spectral lines observed.
  • One participant introduces the idea of defining temperature as the mean free energy per unit quantum, regardless of the nature of the quantum.
  • Another participant discusses the relationship between temperature and spectral line broadening, noting that a hot gas will exhibit greater broadening than a cold gas.
  • There is a query regarding the relationship between spectral line intensities and the amount of substance in the gas cloud.
  • Concerns are raised about how the definition of free energy excludes certain energy contributions, potentially complicating the understanding of temperature.
  • A participant mentions the choice of reference frames when considering the kinetic energy of the bulk gas, suggesting that this affects the observed spectral shifts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definition of temperature and its relationship to kinetic and internal energy. There is no consensus on whether temperature is frame dependent or how it should be defined in relation to spectral lines.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of the relationship between temperature, kinetic energy, and internal energy, as well as the implications of reference frames on these definitions. The discussion remains open-ended with unresolved aspects regarding the definitions and relationships discussed.

turin
Homework Helper
Messages
2,314
Reaction score
3
I'm trying to understand this application of thermodynamics to astronomical inferrence. As I understand it, the temperature of a diffuse gas cloud in distant space can be inferred from the relative intensities of the spectral lines (correct?) which indicates the distribution of the population of excited states. However, until I uncovered this suggestion, I had accepted temperature to be proportional to the average kinetic energy of the particles (including rotational and vibrational) by definition (through Boltzmann's constant). So, which is it? Which defines the temperature: kinetic energy or internal energy (or a combination of both)?

And, if it is kinetic energy, then does a cloud of gas moving through space have a higher temperature than an identical cloud of gas that is stationary; is temperature frame dependent?
 
Science news on Phys.org
Because the temperature (average kinetic energy) is higher more atoms will be in excited states due to more energetic collisions. Thus the spectral lines present will be an indication of the temperature.
 
turin said:
I had accepted temperature to be proportional to the average kinetic energy of the particles (including rotational and vibrational) by definition

And, if it is kinetic energy, then does a cloud of gas moving through space have a higher temperature than an identical cloud of gas that is stationary; is temperature frame dependent?
I think the definition is made up with the internal energy of the system which is rotational, vibrational energy of the particles and translational energy wrt the center of mass. To get the total energy one has to add [itex]P^2 / 2 M[/itex](total mass/momentum). Like this the definition is frame invariant.
 
Integral said:
Because the temperature (average kinetic energy) is higher more atoms will be in excited states due to more energetic collisions. Thus the spectral lines present will be an indication of the temperature.
In what way ? Exactly what is the relationship between temperature and line intensities ?

Higher temperature -> more high energy photons ?

I guess it's more complicated than that ?
 
when it is hotter the electrons are in higher energy levels. at these different (higher) energy levels different atomic transitions can occur. this gives the different spectral lines.
 
Probably the best way to define temperature is the mean free energy per unit quantum, regardless of the nature of the quantum, which could be a free photon, electron, lattice exitation or internal vibrational mode.
 
What's "mean free energy?"
 
turin said:
What's "mean free energy?"
"mean" is essentially average here.

Free energy is that part of its energy not bound up in being what it is. For solitary massive particles, don't include rest energy. For lattices, don't include binding energy of the lattice.

Njorl
 
Oh, you can also see temperature distributions in the broadening of transition spectra. A hot gas will broaden a line by red-shifting and blue-shifting around a mean wavelength more than a cold gas will.

You can also gauge temperatures from absorption broadening - broadening of dark lines in a spectrum.

Njorl
 
  • #10
Wouldn't the intensities of the spectral lines also be indicative of the amount of substance in the gas cloud?
 
  • #11
Njorl said:
Free energy is that part of its energy not bound up in being what it is. For solitary massive particles, don't include rest energy. For lattices, don't include binding energy of the lattice.
How does this exclude the overall kinetic energy of the bulk (which is free energy by this definition as I understand it)? Doesn't this disallow the distribution of oribital energies as an indication of temperature?
 
  • #12
When you consider the kinetic energy of the bulk, you have a choice of reference frames. You can zero the bulk kinetic energy by the judicious choice of frame, then attribute gross red or blue shifting to the moving observer.

Njorl
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
5K
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K