Is the Vector Field F(x,y) Conservative?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining whether the vector field F(x,y) = (e^x sin(y) + tan(y))i + (e^x cos(y) + sec^2(y))j is conservative, exploring the mathematical definitions and implications of conservativeness in vector fields.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how to determine if the vector field is conservative and requests assistance with the calculations.
  • Another participant explains that a vector field is conservative if it can be expressed as the gradient of a scalar function, suggesting that the mixed partial derivatives must be equal.
  • A participant notes that the curl of the vector field should be zero for it to be conservative, although acknowledges that this method is computationally intensive.
  • One participant challenges the assertion that taking the curl is a more direct method, emphasizing that it involves different steps and requires three-dimensional considerations, while the problem is two-dimensional.
  • A later reply acknowledges the previous correction and reflects on the challenges faced in distinguishing between mathematical and physical terminology.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the methods for determining if the vector field is conservative, with some favoring the gradient approach and others advocating for the curl method. There is no consensus on the best approach or the conclusion regarding the conservativeness of the vector field.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the implications of mixed derivatives and the dimensionality of the problem, highlighting potential limitations in the methods used to analyze the vector field.

Dx
Determine whether the vector field is conservative. F(x,y)=(e^x sin(y) + tan(y)i + (e^x cos(y) + sec^2(y)j.
f(x1,y1) = [inte]A to B (F * T) ds = [inte]A to B(e^x sin(y) + tan(y)dx + (e^x cos(y) + sec^2(y)dy = [inte]1 to 0 (e^x sin(y) + tan(y)dx + (e^x cos(y) + sec^2(y)dy

I am lost from here can anyone help me solve from here please?
Dx
 
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You are given that F=(e^x sin(y) + tan(y))i + (e^x cos(y) + sec^2(y))j.

The rest of the formula you gave is not necessary. F is the vector field. saying that it is "conservative" (that's really a physics term- the mathematics term is "exact") means that it is the gradient of some scalar function. In other words, is there a function f(x,y) such that F= grad(f)= (df/dx)i+ (df/dy)j.

If df/dx= e^x sin(y)+ tan(y) then

df/dxdy= e^x cos(y)+ sec^2(y)

If df/dy= e^x cos(y)+ sec^2(y)

df/dydx= e^x cos(y). Notice that df/dxdy is not the same as df/dy/dx: but mixed derivatives have to be equal! F is not the gradient of any function, this vector field is not conservative (exact).

By the way, if it were F= (e^x sin(y) + tan(y))i + (e^x cos(y) + xsec^2(y))j then it would be conservative. Do you see the difference?
 
Or even more directly, if you take the curl of the vector field (something we physicsts do all the time), you'll find conservative field curls are equal to 0. Of course, the curl is little computationally intensive, but the answer is unmistakeable and there is a great deal of satisfaction when you get through the thing :smile:
 
I wouldn't call that "more directly". What taking the curl involves is taking the derivatives as above, then subtracting to see if the result is 0 rather than comparing to see if they are the same.
I would even point out that the curl requires working in three dimensions while this problem is purely two dimensional.

You are right that is the same thing. And anyone who talks in terms of "conservative vector fields" rather than "exact differentials" might be more comfortable with "curl" than second derivatives.
 
I stand corrected. Sometimes in physics, we have difficulty seeing the forest from the trees. THanx
 

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