Do Black Holes Truly Have Zero-Point Volume Singularities?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the nature of black holes, specifically the concept of zero-point volume singularities. Participants explore theoretical implications from general relativity and quantum mechanics, the physical properties of black holes, and the potential for information to escape from them. The scope includes theoretical physics, conceptual understanding, and the implications of mathematical models.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express skepticism about the existence of zero-point volume singularities, noting a lack of solid proof and suggesting that mathematical singularities may not correspond to physical realities.
  • Others highlight the conflict between general relativity, which suggests singularities exist, and quantum theory, which implies that such singularities may not be physically realizable.
  • One participant proposes that all physical objects, including black holes, must have finite properties and suggests the Planck density limit as a more plausible explanation for black hole volume.
  • A participant raises questions about recent developments in black hole theory, particularly regarding the escape of information from the event horizon and the implications of the uncertainty principle.
  • Another participant argues against the formation of singularities based on the concept of time dilation, suggesting that the collapse of a black hole's mass to a singularity would take an infinite amount of time, thus never occurring.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the existence and nature of singularities in black holes, with no consensus reached. Some argue for the physical reality of finite properties, while others uphold the theoretical existence of singularities as predicted by mathematics.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reflects various assumptions about the nature of black holes, the definitions of singularities, and the implications of mathematical models. There are unresolved questions regarding the criteria for information escaping black holes and the limits of compression of matter.

taylordnz
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i have found no solid proof of black holes having zero point volume and is widly accepted but I've found no proof?

could someone give me some?
 
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There is no proof. General Relativity leads to this conclusion. On the other hand quantum theory says no. When trying to do both at once, the results are nonsensical. In other words, physicists do not really know what goes on inside a black hole.
 
The real universe has no respect for the 'laws' we attempt to impose upon it. Mathematical singularities are just that.. mathematical. Their physical counterparts do not exist. All objects in the physical universe have finite properties, even black holes. QLG will eventually provide the answer, imo. For now, I prefer the Planck density limit to explain black hole volume [very tiny, yet finite].
 
Interesting discussion. I was doing a search on the Stephen Hawking recent change on black hole theory and found this thread.

Its been awhile since I have read up on black holes. Can someone help get me up to speed.

The thought use to be that nothing escapes from the event horizon of a black hole. Anything that escaped would be considered information although not organized information. I assume they are not implying that the same information or matter that goes in has to be the same form of information coming out. The term "information" means anything, particles, electrons etc.

So now they are using the unceratainty principle to show that it is possible for something to escape the event horizon even if it is less than protons width outside of the event horizon?

I guess I don't understand what the criteria is. How far outside of the event horizon must the information travel?

I always thought of a black hole not as a singularity but a sphere of great density, basically a bunch of protons. electrons with zero space between them. The sphere would still have a radius vs a infinetly small point. But take the math to the limits and presto you get singularities in theory.

Are they saying black holes are a large dense ball of matter that has quantum fluctuations at the surface and by the uncertainty principle an occassional electron or some form of information escapes for a brief moment over a very short distance? Or are they saying it can propagate through space away from the black hole?

Another question: When mathematics predicts singularities are they tossing aside the real possibliltiy that there might be a finite amount of compression obtainable. Meaning no matter how large the force you can't compress particles any closer together, thus the size of the black holes physical surface just gets larger and in turn the event horizons diameter increases vs a singluarity with a increasing event horizon diameter as more and more matter gets sucked in.

Thanks for any information you can lend.
 
We have often discussed in these forums whether or not singularities can really be formed. I have always maintained that they cannot because of time dilation. The final moment of collapse, in which the central mass of the black hole goes from some very small size to no size at all, should take an infinite amount of time, and therefore never actually be completed.
 

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