Is there a limit to the validity of laws as the universe expands?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the validity of physical laws, particularly in the context of an expanding universe. Participants explore the implications of cosmic expansion on Newton's law of gravity and other fundamental principles, while also debating the nature of redshift and the universe's overall behavior.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that Newton's law of gravity can be applied under certain conditions, while questioning if any laws could lose validity over time.
  • Others strongly contest the idea of an expanding universe, claiming it is not supported by evidence.
  • A participant suggests that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle might redefine the understanding of time and laws, potentially leading to the creation of new universes with different laws.
  • There are claims that gravitational redshift could explain observed redshifts without invoking expansion, although this is characterized as speculation.
  • Some participants argue that the synchronization of light slowing down in all directions is unlikely to occur without an expanding universe explanation, such as the Doppler Effect.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of a static universe, including the need for significant mass to cause gravitational redshift and the stability of local galaxy groups.
  • Participants discuss the relationship between mass and observed redshift, referencing general relativity's predictions and observational data.
  • There is mention of the "omega problem" related to the universe's density parameter and its implications for cosmological models.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express significant disagreement regarding the expansion of the universe and the interpretation of redshift. No consensus is reached on the validity of the laws of physics in the context of cosmic expansion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of the discussion, including the dependence on definitions of terms like "expansion" and "redshift," as well as the unresolved nature of certain mathematical and theoretical claims.

kurious
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Newton's law of gravity Force = Gm1 m2 / r^2, can be used to calculate the force that the universe as a whole exerts on a particle at its surface, provided a particle on the surface of a sphere containing the entire mass of the universe has a radius greater than 10^ 25 metres (it is currently 10^26 metres).Otherwise general relativity has to be used to calculate " force."
If the universe continues to expand, Newton's law will remain valid for such a calculation of the force of gravity in our universe.Are there any laws which lose their validity completely as time passes in the universe?
 
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That's bull honkie. The Universe is NOT expanding.
 
Maybe when time "passes", since QM is a measurable phenomena where position and momentum are its complementary properties, we can conclude that time itself is under the laws of Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which is deeply connected to h plank constant.

Maybe Heisenberg uncertainty principle becomes the main law which breaks down all other laws, and in this state, new universes can be created, with different initial conditions, which implies new laws.
 
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urtalkinstupid said:
That's bull honkie. The Universe is NOT expanding.

What is your reasoning behind this statement?
Do you have an alternative interpretation of redshift?
 
urtalkinstupid said:
That's bull honkie. The Universe is NOT expanding.

WTF?! not only has it been found that the universe is expanding, but it is accelerating OUTWARD! Proove an explanation for that and a nobel prize is yours.

anyway...back to the thread. I have no idea about what the expanding universe would have on Newtonian physics.
 
Do you have an alternative interpretation of redshift?

Actually I do. Gravitational redshift could make things look redder that they really are and therefore make them look like they are moving away. Just speculation though.
 
i don't want to debunk your explanation before you give one...how could gravity cause a change in the frequency of light coming from all directions of the universe.
 
umm...i don't think so...the universe is accelerating, which has been proven by using type 1 supernovas i believe. The point is...Urtalkinstupid, u are in no possition to say the universe isn't expanding. Especially after your theory of gravity (no offense), i really don't think you should ever talk again.
 
Nothing is "proven" in physics. Physics is all theorized. OMG, Entropy I can actually relate to what you said. A bond seems to have formed. Gravity (whether it be my theory or pull) can cause redshift on light. It slows the light down but to compensate for the loss in speed, the light has to change its frequency. ArmoSkater87, my theory is perfectly valid. When people tell me neutrinos have no rest mass, that tells me that you have no reason to say that my theory is disproven.

So, anyways, the universe is not expanding. What is seen as redshift is just an affect that is slowing down light making it change frequencies. So, is the nobel prize mine yet? We live in a static universe.
 
  • #10
Hi urtalkinstupid,

What is the reason that light is slowing down around us almost simultaneously in all directions?

You have to understand that the chance to find such synchronization among astronomical distances, is millions times less then the Doppler Effect explanation of the expanding universe.
 
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  • #11
Besides that, you also have to find the mass that's causing all of this gravitational redshift - that's an enormous amount of mass.

Also, you have to show how a universe that isn't precisely homogenous could be static. The slightest purturbation would cause local collapses and expansions. Our local group of galaxies, for example, should be rapidly collapsing, but it isn't.
 
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urtalkinstupid said:
Gravity (whether it be my theory or pull) can cause redshift on light. It slows the light down but to compensate for the loss in speed, the light has to change its frequency.
Pretty easy to test this idea - just look at objects with known masses and see whether there is a relationship between their mass and any observed redshift. GR predicts there is just such a relationship, and observations match the GR predictions.

At a cosmological scale, there is the http://astro.uchicago.edu/~laroque/ISW.html data). Being generous then, urtalkinstupid 0, GR cosmology 1.5
 
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  • #13
urtalkinstupid said:
So, anyways, the universe is not expanding. What is seen as redshift is just an affect that is slowing down light making it change frequencies. So, is the nobel prize mine yet? We live in a static universe.

I think, we are back to the omega problem. Omega equals to 1? Greater than 1? Less than 1? Whoever convincingly finds the true value of omega will definitely be awarded the Nobel Prize.
 
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  • #14
Expanding Universe

When you say the universe is expanding, be sure to recognize that the universe refers to what we are able to "see" and/or "measure" (whatever the method).
 

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