|Jul14-03, 03:10 PM||#18|
End of the world
Probably more in the time I've been alive, then in the rest of history.
My questions to you is, what if Jesus returned 25 some years ago, and his name is "PC"?
Why do people think that the end of days has to be the destruction of humanity? This is one of my biggest problems with religions.
Why, instead, can it not be a transistion into a new era, as you've suggested?
Dark Wing posted:
And honestly, I think most any mans would. What you have quoted would be 100% verifiable proof of a god. Thats all we're asking for. If this was the situation, then one would be a fool to not do as Jesus said.
But as metaphoric as the bible can be, are you so sure that Jesus is coming back to setup his kingdom? Or is it possible that we will merely change/evolve into an independant society that can live morally with one another in peace?
I mean, lifespans are extending day by day. I read an article that researcher/scientist, whose son had Parkinsons disease (I think, the one that makes people age very rapidly) and identified the gene(s) responsible. The article said that further research may produce drugs that will slow/stop the aging process.
What makes you so sure jesus did not come back as the scientific method? Perhaps this technological revolution were on the brink of is jesus's kingdom?
I mean, if people can tell me that Eve's genitalia is actually the forbidden fruit (didn't she "taste it" first? Interesting mental picture), then I can interpret revelations to get a belief of the above.
Remember he's not going to return with water, but with fire, What if the fire is merely our new found ability to control fire, to produce numerous things.
But, step back, look at it objectivly, question as to why it hasn't happened when everyone claimed it would (you ppl know the claim was made, although everyone denies it now.)
And if you look at the logic behind it, it really does not make sense.
If god wanted a bunch of robots to worship him in heaven, then why didn't he just make them? Instead, he creates billions of us, provides the means for temptation, and punishes for giving into that temptation.
|Jul15-03, 04:39 AM||#19|
Why do people think that the end of days has do do with destruction? well, that is basicly because all the descriptions given to us have to do with war, death, general fighting, and basicly a purging of the people of israel. ie, the whole 2/3 will be killed and the other 1/3 refined like gold though the fire or somthing like that... but it basicly decribes all out war. based in the middle east, with the coutries involved named and situations told. setting up the kingdom seems to be no small pretty task...
Will Jesus simply try and change society to be independent? well, that may be the purpose of the kingdom... to teach people how to live properly till he leaves after 1000 after the rebellion.. it dosent go any further than that... But the kigdom is described as a time of peace and a time of learning (for those who want to) but other wise technology does go on, life does go on, its not armagedon... so maybe... my guess is that technology is the reason why humans think they can take God on and kill him in the rebellion beofre the 1000 years are up...
I doubt the technological revolution that we are facing is a description of Jesus coming... maybe you could explain this point slightly more and i would understand what you are saying a little better... it could be seen as the catalyst for a lot of what is happaning internationally, i guess, and if you simply take jesus coming metaphoricaly as a catalyst... then i guess you could see it that way....
Eves genatalia being the forbidden fruit???? i havent heard that one before... but that debate goes into a genisis and begining of time debate that isent really what this thread wants to talk about (though i am more than willing for a debate here if anyone wants to start a thread of the actual essence of this forbidden fruit...)
As for the fire mentiuoned to simply again be metaphorical for our new found ability to controll things... again, it dosent really fit the descriptions of whats going to be around us. its returning with fire and war, itsa basic bible symbology... the thing about the bible and symbology is that it decribes exacly what each symbol menas in explicit detail.. there is nothing vauge about the bible... many people think there is but i am inclined to strongly disagree here... there is nothing in the bible that does not clearly explain its self...
Why hasent it all happened when it was ment to happen acording to all those people? well... they were wrong? just because they were all wrong just means they missed somthing. or just got it wrong. many people in many fields get it wrong for hundreds of years before they get it right. its all about discussion, and a search for the truth, not the lock in your head telling everyone you are right and all else are wrong... religion should go through the same test as everything else... so people have been wrong in the past... that dosent mean there is no truth in it...
as for why he didnt create robots... well he didnt want robots, he wanted people who e=were actuly interested in worshiping him. after all this is finished, those he has chosen are ment to be made immortal to do his work through out the univese forever. If you are not up to that, then you get to opt out and die. so he wanted real followers. those who have been there always, not in blind faith, but in understanding. those whpo have made it, not by blocking all else oput but incountering adversary and overcoming it, not with 'faith' but with understanding. once you understand the world you live in and human nature, then you can succede here... but only if you want to... you always have the choice... thats the whole point...
as for creating billions of us then punishing us for giving into temptation.... that goes into your definiton of sin. God knows what we are like, and knows that it is against every bone in our body to do the things that he wants us to do. it is about mind over coming body (and i am not talking about mystical descartian souls here) (am an identity theorist, not a dulist of any kind) But he understands that we cant resist temptation. but if we know whats going on and understand him, and what he is... thats what counts. not all this sin and guilt stuff. i am not even sure where they get the concept of having to be guilty, and what makes a 'sin'. 'sin' is simply anything that is not 100% in Gods will. to be sinless... that basicly impossible for us mere humans. infact, the flash cant even stand in Gods presents... that why humans have always interacted via the angels to God. But all of this also goes into a debate i am not sure this tread is ment to cover.
there is nothing illogical about it, really. you just have to cut all the crap you here people talking and read whats actually wittern. its pretty specific. i dont even understand where most people get their debates against christainaty from, cause most of the time they are debating things that are not even mentioned in the bible (ie going to heven when you die, hell, the trinity, satin as a firey devil and or a fallen angel).... show me where they get this from???
but again, thats for another thread. (if anyone wants to start a discussion on this, there are a few threads going on this at the moment too... :o) )
|Jul16-03, 03:36 PM||#20|
Since reading the bible completely literally, leaves contradictions and certainly behaviour that isn't compatible with current beliefs (stoning adulterers, selling offspring into slavery, preventing those with poor eyesight from approaching the alter of the lord...), everyone I've known treat, at least some of, the bible metaphorically (no matter how much they believe that they believe it literally). Since nobody picks the same metaphors, nor the same sections to treat literally, differences in what the bible means have to exist.
|Jul16-03, 11:24 PM||#21|
well, I'll bet that Dark wing is the first real bible literalist you'll ever meet then, because there is nothing contradictory about any of that with the bible. It's only contradictory to the beliefs of the churches. If you remove the church beliefs, then there are no issues, and you are free to be completely literal about the bible and completely free of contradiction.
So she tells me anyway.... I'll await her next post too though [:D]
|Jul18-03, 11:17 AM||#22|
Church beliefs are just another way of expressing 'non-literal' interpretations.
I guess it could be consistent, as long as anything with regards to rationality was removed from the definition of 'consistent'. [:)]
A list of inconsistencies exists at http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...stencies.shtml
|Jul26-03, 01:26 AM||#23|
Some of the inconsistencies within that page are not inconsistencies within the bible, but rather inconsistencies between the bible and the church, or between the Bible and common understandings about what God is/Should be.
But also, some of them are quite important inconsistencies within the book itself. These are the ones which are meaningful to me. When this single book contradicts itself, I find it hard to accept anything. My favourites from the few I looked at include:
GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, IS 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.
GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.
GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.
GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.
EX 9:3-6 God destroys all the cattle (including horses) belonging to the Egyptians.
EX 9:9-11 The people and the cattle are afflicted with boils.
EX 12:12, 29 All the first-born of the cattle of the Egyptians are destroyed.
EX 14:9 After having all their cattle destroyed, then afflicted with boils, and then their first-born cattle destroyed, the Egyptians pursue Moses on horseback.
Oh, and then, I find this one interesting
NU 11:33 God inflicts sickness.
JB 2:7 Satan inflicts sickness.
Because if you read the Job one, you will actually see that 'satan' suggests that Job only loves god because he has everything Good, so God agrees with 'satan' and tells him to go and do whatever he wants to test Job's love/fear. So, this isn't an inconsistency at all, but rather an inconsistency with the common acceptance of what God should be. It seems apparent that God isn't a perfectly good, all loving being at all.
|Jul26-03, 05:27 AM||#24|
For those who is christians, Jesus, you know, (the son of) God, personally tells noone will know when the end of days is. I really don't understand why still the hysteria among christians.
|Jul26-03, 06:00 AM||#25|
|Jul26-03, 06:13 AM||#26|
If I don't remember wrong he says it in not just matthiew, but also some of the other evangelics
Matthew 24 :
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of "
So he states this many times.. [zz)]
|Jul26-03, 06:31 AM||#27|
Markus 13, 21 - 22 tells excatly the same as Matthew 24, 23-24.
Markus 13, 33- 37:
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Maybe some christians tells about that he will come there and then because they want to commercialise, or spread christianity, and consciously lying. But lying is also against the ten commandments, so.. ?
|Jul26-03, 06:47 AM||#28|
I'll take NIV version this time for variation. Lukas 12:
35 Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
41Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?"
42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
The Coming of the Kingdom of God
20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
22Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.
That's it. All I found in the evangelics [;)]
|Jul30-03, 12:51 AM||#29|
taking the bible litraly does not posess the problems stated above. there are no contradictions, take it as it comes. it is a time line, there were diffrent laws at diffrent times for diffrent reasons. you cant take the laws that were prominent in the old testemont (such as the 10 commandments)and apply them to the time of jesus, as the rules have simply changed. you have to take what was said as a time/place thing. if they say 'go and stone this person for such a crime' it is because that is what should be done then. if it said 'dont marry or have children' its because the city you are living in is about to be destroyed, why slow your self down with large familys and cause yourself heart break when they get killed? there is nothing wrong with a litral translation.
The churches love to put 'inturprataion' into it, basicly so they can twist it into saying what they want to say. i am going to have a look at all of these contradictions that have been mentioned so far in these postings, and if i can give an explanation for them that will satisfy the members of this thread, then present me with more. if it turns out that there are REAL contradictions - after any translation problems i can find or definition problems have not been explained - then i shall absolutly agree with you, and argue against my current side. if it can be proven that the bible is simply a load of clap trap, then i will be the 1st to agree with you and turn.
this is my stance. I dont actuly have the net, so it may be a while between my postings, but i will go through them as they come up (the contradictions) and post them once i have formulated my answer.
|Jul30-03, 03:31 AM||#30|
OK Dark Wing. From the post above, I think these three are the first that need attention. With the first one, I think you need to justify how the Bible says that God doesn't change his mind, when he most obviously does. The other two just seem to be plain time line/plot contradictions.
When I have time, and when you have done these three, I will go and look for more for you.
|Jul30-03, 08:50 AM||#31|
Exactly! We would still have nights! Thanks for clearing that up.
|Jul30-03, 09:11 AM||#32|
Matthew 5:22 "But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the Judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the counsil: but whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of Hell fire."
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell."
Proverbs 9:18 "But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guest are in the depths of Hell."
Matthew 5:29,30 "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into Hell.
"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into Hell."
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the Lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
Psalm 9:17 "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."
Revelations 20:12,15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Now, it takes some pretty skewed thinking to rationalize all of that away.
[Should we own slaves?]
Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."
Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.
[Are we punished for our parents' sins?]
Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."
Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Now, no matter how literal you want to get Exodus 20:5 and Ezekiel 18:20 are in direct contradiction.
I could go on and on and on with this. A simple search engine check will turn up a few sites with the contradictions.
Here's one: http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html
I know it won't change you mind, but you were the one that brought this up.
You know, if you are going to debate this stuff, you really need to read you bible more.
One other thing. I'm not one to talk about spelling, as atrocious as I am, but it was hard to follow your post, the spelling was so bad. A trick I do is to copy my finished text into word or another text editor and have it's spell checker find and correct the misspellings. It would greatly increase you're readability.
|Jul30-03, 09:52 AM||#33|
Great post Radagast.
I can tell you from Dark Wing that her belief in God is that he is just a prick doing what he wants (ie: Not omnibenevolent and not one who can't change his mind). But if the Bible says that God doesn't change his mind, and she believes that the bible holds the truth, then this must be rationalised out and solved, else the book must be discarded as fiction.
As far as I am concerned, internal contradictions constitute a good reason to doubt/dismiss a book which is said to speak absolute truth.
So, I await her reply, because she does know a lot more about the Book than I do...
|Jul31-03, 01:57 AM||#34|
The first thing i would like to ask you to do is make sure when you are quoting you either use a King James bible (one of the 1st editions is best) or one of the really early NIV's. Why? simply due to translation issues. of course we have a probelm in the translation from hebrew/greek to english, and many of the churches use this as an excuse to basicly write what they want in the later editions, and change entire paragraphs of the text to suit their teachings, this is just what they do.
I dont have my concordances here to show you the original hebrew and show you the real manings of words, which is basicly what this argument comes down to. the meaning of the word "hell" as it is translated into english. what this basicly means (i will post the original hebrew word used with the explanation of what that word means when i am home, i am on the road at the moment, and it is hard enough to get online as it is here...) :o)
Hell basicly means "to be in the ground" or underground. ie burried. dead. you are burried in the ground, and that is hell. as simple as that. i will go through yor quotes now with a little explanation, maybe that will make what i am trying to say clearer...
killing the soul is used here as killing your faith, your belief. ie. those who would persecute you for being a christian in the time of matthew can kill you and your body, but thats to no avail if you keep your faith. for even after you have been killed under persecution, you are ressurected on judgement day to see what happens next (possibility of eternal life doing Gods work around the place). do not fear those who would kill the body, fear the one that can take both your body and your chance for ressuraction, ie life. (this may need more explanation) so soul=life, God can take the chance of you having eternal life. fear him more than your persecutors.
yes, guests with in the depths of the earth. where they await ressurection...
cast into the ground... into death... get rid of part of you if you must, better that then your whole body die and rot in the grave.
ahhh, now we get to the interesting bit. yes, they will be cast into the fire, and welcome to revelations. here, you have to be careful what you are talking about when you say fire, again, there are diffrent hebrew words used for many of these terms...
the devil and the beast and the false phrophet- these are all symbols that have been explained in previous chapters. the lake of fire that they are talking about in these 2 quotes mean 2 things (in each context) 1. fire, being the already mentioned symbol for war and death around the world (at which point 2/3 of the jews will be killed the last 1/3 refined through the fire like gold) and 2. the lake of fire that will be in the middle of mt Zion when it splits along the tectonic plates there (also described previously) yes. very space, i know, but i will explain that in greater depth later if you want me to (that is about the end of days, after all, and that is what this thread was meant to be about...)
i am going to have to look this one up. i will get back to you.
yes, they will die. they will not become immortal. they will no longer have life. we are currently the walking dead anyway, we will doe, and turn to dust, its just a matter of time. these are the nations that do not believe. the people that do have the chance at eternal life. they will not be in hell for ever. the others will stay in the ground.
yes. this is the ressusrection. those found worthy become immortal. those who are not are killed. killed by being thrown in the lake of fire (flesh does not last long in a lake of fire)
So if Hell becomes the earth, and death with no chance of ressurection is death into hell with no soul, then most of these get cleared up. i will look up those matthews quotes, and write a whole post on revelations when i have my stuff in front of me (this is a rush job, am at work)
but hopefully this gives you a start onto what i am saying.
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