Animal Suicide: Examining Self-Awareness and Pain in the Animal Kingdom

  • Thread starter Thread starter da_willem
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Animals
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the concepts of animal suicide, self-awareness, and consciousness in the animal kingdom. Participants examine whether animals can commit suicide under distressing conditions and if they possess self-recognition abilities, particularly in relation to mirror tests.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about examples of animals committing suicide when in pain or captivity, suggesting that the intent behind such actions is difficult to determine.
  • Others mention that certain apes and dolphins can recognize themselves in mirrors, referencing external sources to support this claim.
  • A participant points out the ambiguity in interpreting animal behavior, such as refusal to eat, which could indicate suicide or illness.
  • There are discussions about the challenges in assessing whether animals understand mirrors or see their reflection as another individual.
  • One participant suggests that chimps have demonstrated self-recognition in mirror tests, while another mentions dolphins reportedly engaging in self-destructive behavior.
  • Some argue that many animals likely possess some form of self-consciousness, though the understanding of mirrors may vary.
  • Another participant introduces the idea of mental models in animals, noting behaviors like deceit and problem-solving as indicators of complex cognitive abilities.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of animal suicide and the nature of self-awareness in animals. There is no consensus on whether animals can commit suicide or fully understand their reflections in mirrors.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations in determining intent behind animal behaviors and the varying interpretations of consciousness and self-awareness across species.

da_willem
Messages
594
Reaction score
1
Are there examples of animals committing suicide when in great pain or captivity?

Are humans the only animals with a self-conscience, in the sense of recognising themselves in a mirror?

Anybody?
 
Biology news on Phys.org
da_willem said:
Are humans the only animals with a self-conscience, in the sense of recognising themselves in a mirror?

A quick Google search suggests that some other apes and dolphins can recognize themselves in a mirror.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/05/0502_dolphinvanity.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks! I should have thought of first trying Google...
 
There are situations where it would be hard to discern if non-human animals were comitting suicide or dying of natural causes. For example, refusal to eat could be suicidal or just that they feel too sick to eat. Whales that beach themselves and are then dragged back into water sometimes re-beach themselves, and nobody knows why. It could be a screwed up processing of direction, or they could be attempting suicide. The suicide aspect has been speculated upon, but we have no way to know. And there are those darned squirrels playing chicken in the roadways. You ask a tough question.

The mirror question is probably easier to answer. But, even then, it's hard to know if the animals recognize themselves or think it's another of their species they are seeing (if you put a mirror up by a betta's fishbowl, you'll see it try to attack the reflection...the top of a dresser with a mirror is not a good home for a betta's bowl! Anyway, it's an example of the fish thinking the reflection is another fish, not recognizing it as itself. I'm not sure if even human babies realize their reflection is themself until they learn this from a parent...my friend's 14 mo old has recently learned to give kisses to other people and we watched in amusement as she tried to kiss the little girl she saw reflected in the surface of a glass table...she clearly didn't recognize the reflection as herself).
 
da_willem said:
Are there examples of animals committing suicide when in great pain or captivity?

Are humans the only animals with a self-conscience, in the sense of recognising themselves in a mirror?

Anybody?

I'm not sure what you are describing is self-consciousness so much as mirror consciousness. I think animals are self-conscious, but many of them may not understand mirrors and how they work.
 
There is an easy way to decide wether a baby recognises itself in a mirror. If you stick a bright colored sticker on the forehead of a baby and let it look in a mirror. After a certain age (I was shoked how high this was, about 4yrs or something...) instead of point at the sticker in the mirror the child will feel their own forehead to get the sticker off. I guess something like this could be done to certain animals too.

And I totally agree on the difficulties that arise deciding wether it's suicide an animal is comitting or not...
 
I think chimps are able to recognize themselves in a mirror. I've read of experiments when they paint little dots say over the chimps eye, and looking in the mirror he sees the dot and touches his face where the spot is...

As for animal suicides, I'm less sure of that. I have heared of unhappy captured dolphins comitting suicide by repeatingly swimming into the wall of its pool, but I don't know if that's true at all.
 
Two things:
- committing suicide: there are plenty of species which, when an individual is put in a cage, will 'commit suicide', e.g. by bashing their heads against the bars, or not eating. However, the question of 'intent' must be nigh impossible to determine.
- mental models: lots of animals can apparently make mental models of 'others', be they prey, predators, or 'fellow critters'. 'Deceit' is, AFAIK, well documented behaviour among (some) other primates, but also in ravens! Clearly, deceit requires the deceiver to recognise the other, to have a model of the other's behaviour, and to act on that model. 'Problem solving' is another category of mental model; plenty of species have well documented capabilities in this area (some primates, some birds, ...). A third is 'acquired learning', e.g. some monkeys.

So, it probably comes down to what you consider 'consciousness' to be :rolleyes: :eek:
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
9K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
Replies
27
Views
7K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 75 ·
3
Replies
75
Views
12K