What Lies on the Other Side of Pressure ?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Antonio Lao
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Pressure
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of pressure, particularly its definition and implications in various contexts, including within enclosed volumes and the universe at large. Participants explore theoretical aspects of pressure in both nonrelativistic and relativistic scenarios, as well as the nature of pressure outside the universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants define pressure as force per unit area and discuss its scalar nature compared to the vector nature of force.
  • Others introduce the concept of the pressure stress vector and its dependence on isotropic conditions.
  • Participants present equations for pressure in nonrelativistic and relativistic ideal gases, noting differences in pressure values based on energy density.
  • One participant questions why pressure in nonrelativistic gas is twice that in relativistic gas.
  • Some argue that pressure outside an enclosed volume is always less than inside, suggesting that the pressure outside the universe is zero, which could relate to universal expansion.
  • Another participant introduces the idea of a boundary between two density values, proposing the term "true vacuum" for a state of complete nothingness.
  • From quantum field theory, one participant mentions the concept of a false vacuum and its implications for understanding mass in physics.
  • A question is raised regarding the effect of constant density on the equation of continuity.
  • Participants clarify their focus on thermodynamic state equations and the implications of isotropic pressure in relation to momentum transfer and velocity fields.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the nature of pressure, particularly in relation to the universe and its boundaries. There is no consensus on the definition of pressure outside the universe or the implications of constant density on the equation of continuity.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions hinge on assumptions about isotropic conditions and the definitions of pressure and vacuum states. The implications of these assumptions on the broader understanding of pressure and density are not fully resolved.

Antonio Lao
Messages
1,436
Reaction score
1
What Lies on the Other Side of Pressure ?

Pressure is commonly defined as force per unit area.

[tex]P = \frac{F}{A}[/tex]

Pressure is a scalar quantity but force is a vector quantity. To make sense the equation must the scalar product of vector force and a vector which is equivalent to inverse of a vector product, [itex]r \times r[/itex].

But the concept of pressure as a scalar is clear when it is defined as the volume rate of change of energy.

[tex]P = \frac{\partial E}{\partial V}[/tex]

But if pressure is properly defined within an enclosed volume, what is the definition of pressure outside this volume?

If this volume is the universe itself, what is the pressure outside the universal volume?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Eeh, actually, we define the stress vector as a limiting quantity
[tex]\vec{P}=\frac{\vec{F}}{A}[/tex]
when A goes to zero.
A fundamental assumption when introducing the pressure stress vector,
[tex]\vec{P}_{p}[/tex]
is that we have isotropic conditions.
This entails that on a given surface, the pressure stress vector can be written as:
[tex]\vec{P}_{p}=-p\vec{n}[/tex]
where p is the scalar known as pressure, and [tex]\vec{n}[/tex] is the outward normal on the surface.
 
For nonrelativistic ideal gas the pressure is

[tex]P = \frac{2}{3} u[/tex]

and for relativistic ideal gas such as electromagnetic radiation the pressure is

[tex]P = \frac {1}{3} u[/tex]

where [itex]u[/itex] is the total energy density of radiation.
 
Why there is twice as much pressure in nonrelativistic gas than it is in relativistic gas?
 
One thing is clear that the pressure outside of an enclosed volume is always less than the pressure inside of the volume. So what is the pressure outside of the universe? The answer is that the pressure is zero. This zero pressure can also be the cause of the universal expansion.
 
The boundary of the universe is then between two density values one value is always greater than zero and the other is always exactly zero. And the name for this boundary can be named as the true vacuum (a state of complete nothingness).
 
From quantum field theory, we have established the fact that the vacuum we are in is not really empty. It's a false vacuum with its ceaseless fluctuations and virtual particles which could hold the key to understanding the true meaning of mass in physics.
 
arildno said:
where p is the scalar known as pressure, and is the outward normal on the surface.

My belated thanks to your description of pressure. I have a question concerning how would constant density affect the equation of continuity?

[tex]\frac{\partial \rho}{\partial t} + div \left( \rho \vec{v}\right) = 0[/tex]
 
Hi, A.L:
I think we have talked slightly beside each other in this thread:
As far as I can see, you have been concerned with typical state equations (i.e, thermodynamical) in which the isotropic pressure is related to other important variables.
This is obviously an extremely important issue, but I'm not sufficiently into thermodynamics&relativity to offer valuable comments.

I gave the definition of pressure as an isotropic form of (normal) stress.
(Clearly, when we consider the random momentum transfer molecules impart on a surface in the normal direction (i.e, as a collision), the randomness should guarantee that there is no "preferred direction", i.e, isotropic conditions).

In the case of a constant density field, the equation of continuity implies a divergence-free (solenoidal) velocity field
 
  • #10
arildno said:
In the case of a constant density field, the equation of continuity implies a divergence-free (solenoidal) velocity field

Thanks for your clarification.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
4K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
4K
  • · Replies 67 ·
3
Replies
67
Views
9K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K