[SOLVED] Move that water!

CIVILian

Firstly g'day all, just had a glance through some of the topics and this seems like a fine forum.

Some of you may be able to help me with a little problem I've been juggling in my head for a couple of weeks.

Say I had a 1000 litre tank of water say one metre above the ground. At the bottom of the tank I have an outlet coming out the side of the tank, for instance a 50 mill PVC pipe.

Now, the problem I'm trying to overcome is, if I wanted to move as much of this water as possible to a higher location (higher than the outlet) into an inlet which is level with the top of the tank and about 2 metres away in horizontal distance, without using any additional energy except for the potential energy already in the tank and without the use of a syphon or pump or outside energy of any kind, how would I go about this?

Looking at it, to me logically, any pipe I connect to the outlet and up, well, I would only be able to get the water through the pressure in the tank , to the level of the top of the water. But I need it to go into the inlet which faces the tank but only the bottom lip of the inlet in level with the top of the tank.

I would usually be in the philosophical parts of this forum so am not quite the techincal man. Hopefully I've explained it clearly but if I haven't then say so and I'll try and whip up the scenario in paint or something.

Cheers!

brewnog

A picture would be good here! If you're trying to raise any water above the level that is at the surface of the water in the supply tank, you will need more than just a pipe. Perhaps a gravity pump would help? But yes, post a picture.

Marijn

Won't work.
The waterlevel in the tank it the same hight as the bottom of the target tank.
It would only level out ti'll the level is equal in the source tank and the target tank.
So in practice tou would probably only succede in getting a layer of about a cm in the target tank before the levels are in balance, that or nothing at all.

brewnog

But you *could* try a gravity pump!

russ_watters

With a siphon, you can lift the water higher than the level of the top of the water in the first tank (to get it over the top of the tank, for example) as long as it ends up below the level at the end of the hose. The final result is that you can't get the level in the second tank to be higher than the level in the 1st.

Rogerio

It doesn't matter: even using a siphon he can't go above the level of the top of the water in the first tank.

If he could, then he could repeat this process whith a third tank, and so on...

Artman

This could work, if he doesn't need to move it fast, and he can get enough drop before the rise.


Gravity Pump

russ_watters

No, with a siphon, you can make the water go up - it just has to end up below the level of the water in the first tank. That's what a siphon is - its how you can siphon gas up and out of a gas tank.

Rogerio

I don't care whether the siphon can go as high as I want, since the water inside it is useless for anyone. The point is how to get usable water (outside any siphons) in a second tank above the first one.
And the truth is: using a siphon you can get water above the bottom of the first tank, of course, but you will never get any water above the level of the first tank.

russ_watters

Well, its useful if you're trying to steal gas from someone: the only other way to do with without a pump would be to flip the car upside down.

Rogerio

I don't see how your car could use the fuel while it is INSIDE the siphon...

As I told you before, the point is how to get USABLE water (OUTSIDE any siphons) in a second tank above the first one.

And, once more, the truth is: using a siphon you can get water above the bottom of the first tank, of course, but you will NEVER get any water ABOVE THE LEVEL of the first tank.

russ_watters

Fuel travels up and out of the gas tank through the siphon, then down into the container you are collecting it in. To make it work, the end of the siphon the gas comes out has to be lower than the level of gas in the car's tank. Look HERE and HERE

brewnog

Yes, but the container you're collecting it in can't be higher than your fuel tank!

Marijn

It is so even a syphon won't work.
In other words nothing will work, at least nothing that doesn't use external power to move the water.
Lik i said, the water will fill the pipe and stay there because the filling of the pipe will definately lower the waterlevel below the bottom of the second container.

Artman

This is not a true statement. A gravity pump can move water to a higher point than the bottom of the water level without external power (except the kinetic energy of falling water). This is not against the laws of physics. It does it by using the falling water to move a little water to a higher point. They are highly inefficent (move only a small portion of the water that is dropped to a higher point), slow and waste water, but they can move water to a higher plane without external power. This is not psuedo-science, they are in use.

Marijn

Ok but that would require you to dump the water used to move the pump.
(same principle is used to boost the pressure in air tanks when there isn't a compressor around with suffcient capacity).
I did not take wasting water in my reasoning.

But your right, with sacreficing water you could be able to get some water in the 2nd tank.

Rogerio

You are missing the most important: the level of the water at the second tank will NEVER be higher than the level at the first tank.
Take a careful look at THERE.

Again, the truth is: using a siphon you can get water above the bottom of the first tank, but you will NEVER get any water ABOVE THE LEVEL of the first tank.

I'm afraid you don't believe in this.